Why not simply let managers choose nationality of youth?

[Paul_G]

paul_g and kolarma1 why don't you ask sjarel why there are not more coordinators from other countries rather than re-inventing the wheel?

Sjarel gets asked that all the time. In fact there are probably two or three active threads right now where someone is asking that question of Sjarel or the SP team in general.

And why bother? We know the answer to that question anyway, don't we? There aren't enough co-ordinators because the development team hasn't had nearly enough time to enter them all. This is because they didn't plan on the amount of work this change would cause before they implemented it.

Also it's dependent on individual players going out and doing legwork to find appropriate names for the co-ordinators. I'm sure a few are wondering why they're doing research and going through hassle to support a change they don't even like.

if i was sjarel and made all these changes and someone came onto my game and rubbished it (without much evidence to suggest why) then i would feel abit annoyed.

Why would he feel annoyed? He knows the score. Some people are just around to bash, but as an SPFA member I've supported this game more than most and I'm entitled to my opinion. I think a lot of the things about this game are good, and I say so on these boards. However, I think this change sucks, and I'll voice my opinion on that, too.

I think my posts are fairly well-spoken and the team knows that they aren't personal. People sharing their opinions on this board are what will ultimately make the game better.

Without much evidence?!? My God, man... haven't you read any of the threads about this topic? There are a million reasons why this change is a bad idea. Just open any of the threads about youth co-ordinators and pick one. Start from there. I'll debate the merits of this idea with anyone... the people speaking against this change have such an easily defensible position that any logical discussion would be completely one-sided.

I'll also repeat that when the game started you could only be belgian therefore many managers were stuck as belgians with belgian youths.

That sucks. But how many people does that affect? About 500, maybe? Is that worth inconveniencing 19,000 other players? *Many* other ideas have been suggested to address this problem, and all of them are better than the one that was implemented. There's a better idea right on this thread as a matter of fact.

like modes says the upshot is that more coordinators and/or filters would assist your 'problem'. but have you thought that more coordinators would help more youths into the game. therefore skewing the transfer balance, thus altering the sp economy

No, I've never thought of that. Can you explain your SP economy thing a bit?

The way I see it... there are 20,000 owners with YC's. If we all play musical chairs with YC's because of this change, won't there still be 20,000 owners with YC's? How would this create more youths? In fact there would be slightly less youths for a while because many people are now having to train new YC's.

I personally don't have a problem, from my own teams standpoint. My YC is American and is now fully trained, so it's not about my own personal gain. But when many people are complaining and the change is alienating so many foriegn players, then that hurts the game as a whole. I want people from all nationalities to enjoy the game and to bring more people from other countries in... because that enriches my experience here too. This change hurts that.

[matt]

Really, where we are now is a combination of two bad ideas. One is the youth co-ordinator change, and the other the concept that staff names have to be real. Upon the change, I think it would have helped a lot if we could have dropped the 'real names' rule at the same time so that we could just get staff in the database ASAP. But I guess that's in the past now.

a) The real names-thing is a big charm of the game (both for players and staff members) so to me, that is left out of discussion
b) This change was made due to a distinct number of managers who wanted to use other nationalities for this youth issue. A lot of them were Belgian, indeed, but this is not a problem that only considers Belgians... I don't see how a foreign manager would not as much want to use another nationality for his youth to get some different ones, than a Belgian manager would.

I'll give you that I indeed found it a quite illogical change in the beginning. I opted for having a random pick of nationality. But there was the argument that managers would want to control this. And I don't really believe in something in between, that's just taking half measures and would bring more confusion imho.
And if you consider the comparison with reality left out (it's a game after all and even though it should try to get close to reality, the necessity of certain things get priority over that) it's a fairly good way to give control and extinct the managernationality issue.
If countries don't have, or too few have staff members of their nationality, then what's the hurt in sending some new ones to Hoevi?
With some 40 names, a lot of combinations are already possible and double names may also appear.
Maybe it's true that there have to be a little bit more staff members on the list of every country, to offer the opportunity to everyone to get the one they want. The proposal from Sjarel to add a number of members to the list every time someone from that country subscribes to the game sounds quite reasonable in that prospect.

[Paul_G]

a) The real names-thing is a big charm of the game (both for players and staff members) so to me, that is left out of discussion.

It's cute enough, and you're right in that it's not THAT big of a deal to send some names to Hoevi. But there is no doubt that this requirement has been a hinderance when it comes to adding new staff members quick, which this quickly implemented change has made necessary.

Personally, I don't see the difference between having fictional names for players and fictional names for staff, but that's not really where I was going with that statement. I'm not knocking the idea of using real names in and of itself. I'm knocking the fact that this has helped cause a bottleneck and slowed down an already involved process of adding new staff.

And as I said before... you'll never have real names of staff from certain places, because there aren't any. So before, we could represent any country in the world... the imagination was the limit. Now we can't. There's no arguing that point... limiting choices is never a good thing IMO.

b) This change was made due to a distinct number of managers who wanted to use other nationalities for this youth issue. A lot of them were Belgian, indeed, but this is not a problem that only considers Belgians... I don't see how a foreign manager would not as much want to use another nationality for his youth to get some different ones, than a Belgian manager would.

I disagree with that... I think it almost exclusively considers Belgians. Think of the reasoning... I don't have the advantage of being able to read the other forums, but all the Belgians who have spoken on the matter here have usually said something like, "I was tired of seeing only Belgian players". Non-Belgian owners don't have that problem. For example, the only American players I ever see are the ones I have created myself, so I'm sure not going to think there are too many American players in the game.

Having said that, I would like a foreign player on occasion, sure. I'd want an occasional guy from a *really* off the wall place. But since I have to fire and re-train a YC to do that, then hire an American again and train him to switch it back, I'll never go through that. The system now is pretty inflexible compared to some of the other ideas I've read.

Undoubtedly there are more plans in the works regarding this. Sjarel's plan to add new staff to the pool with the addition of each new player is an improvement, and I'm pretty sure in a couple of weeks, everyone will be taken care of one way or another. But still, let's say all these changes get made to cover everyone... it'll be a ton of work for the development team and a hassle for many players, and ultimately it will accomplish no more than the idea someone proposed that we just select the nationality of youth we want from a drop-down box in the youth center page.

[modes98's revenge]

wow, you've got to much spare time. Take up drinking it's alot less stressful!

As for YC's let people complain because whatever you do and however you do it there will always be people who think they can do it better or in a different way.

[Paul_G]

wow, you've got to much spare time. Take up drinking it's alot less stressful!

Yeah, but this is cheaper and less fattening. And unlike drinking, I could do that at my desk at work... it helped break up an otherwise tedious day.

[robborover]

Without much evidence?!? My God, man... haven't you read any of the threads about this topic? There are a million reasons why this change is a bad idea. Just open any of the threads about youth co-ordinators and pick one. Start from there. I'll debate the merits of this idea with anyone... the people speaking against this change have such an easily defensible position that any logical discussion would be completely one-sided.

instead of shouting off why not bring them to the forum. all you are saying is that there are many reasons so everybody agree with me. ra ra ra. at the end of the day you still receive youths. they just vary in nationality (depending on your coordinator)!

good luck with your crusade. i thnk that if you feel that passionately against the youth changes then find another game. there are bigger problems in sp than this.

[matt]

good luck with your crusade. i thnk that if you feel that passionately against the youth changes then find another game. there are bigger problems in sp than this.

The right of giving a free opinion / point of view. That's the only thing that matters here. Don't start arguing like that please.

[matt]

It's cute enough, and you're right in that it's not THAT big of a deal to send some names to Hoevi. But there is no doubt that this requirement has been a hinderance when it comes to adding new staff members quick, which this quickly implemented change has made necessary.

Personally, I don't see the difference between having fictional names for players and fictional names for staff, but that's not really where I was going with that statement. I'm not knocking the idea of using real names in and of itself. I'm knocking the fact that this has helped cause a bottleneck and slowed down an already involved process of adding new staff.

And as I said before... you'll never have real names of staff from certain places, because there aren't any. So before, we could represent any country in the world... the imagination was the limit. Now we can't. There's no arguing that point... limiting choices is never a good thing IMO.

I disagree with that... I think it almost exclusively considers Belgians. Think of the reasoning... I don't have the advantage of being able to read the other forums, but all the Belgians who have spoken on the matter here have usually said something like, "I was tired of seeing only Belgian players". Non-Belgian owners don't have that problem. For example, the only American players I ever see are the ones I have created myself, so I'm sure not going to think there are too many American players in the game.

Alright, let me see

First of all, you disagree on the Belgians thing. Well, I believe there's an explanation. The Belgians (and Dutch) mostly play this game longer than all other nationalities. Then it's maybe quite normal that they'd want an other nationality of their players now that it's possible? I also took a Spanish chap so I'm your 4th example I think, and there sure are many more. But there sure are also enough foreign ones...
I stick to the fact that this is also a help for the foreign managers in the future who want to switch nationality. I admit it is maybe a pretty annoying way to do it (raising co-ordinators again), but it's the same for everyone else. Putting it in just a drop box would indeed increase the ease but imo would make it too mechanical. I like the fact that it still has some connection to another thing in the game. And it doesn't always have to be easy. It's perfectly possible.

Now, for the development team. As I'm not part of it, I don't know exactly how much work it is to modify all those names (and I honestly don't have a clue how you do that too?) But don't you think that it would get equal time for Sjarel & co to put real names, as to put fictional names into the game? The only difference in difficulty is the one that has to search real names or make up fictional ones. But as I said, charm etc.
About the little places, I think that's a limited disadvantage indeed. But I also think that's an offer that's acceptable for this feature. That's my own personal opinion though.

[Paul_G]

First of all, you disagree on the Belgians thing. Well, I believe there's an explanation. The Belgians (and Dutch) mostly play this game longer than all other nationalities. Then it's maybe quite normal that they'd want an other nationality of their players now that it's possible? I also took a Spanish chap so I'm your 4th example I think, and there sure are many more. But there sure are also enough foreign ones...

I stick to the fact that this is also a help for the foreign managers in the future who want to switch nationality. I admit it is maybe a pretty annoying way to do it (raising co-ordinators again), but it's the same for everyone else. Putting it in just a drop box would indeed increase the ease but imo would make it too mechanical. I like the fact that it still has some connection to another thing in the game. And it doesn't always have to be easy. It's perfectly possible.

Now, for the development team. As I'm not part of it, I don't know exactly how much work it is to modify all those names (and I honestly don't have a clue how you do that too?) But don't you think that it would get equal time for Sjarel & co to put real names, as to put fictional names into the game? The only difference in difficulty is the one that has to search real names or make up fictional ones. But as I said, charm etc.
About the little places, I think that's a limited disadvantage indeed. But I also think that's an offer that's acceptable for this feature. That's my own personal opinion though.

Oh, the idea itself of being to mix it up with the nationalities is a good one. But you've said yourself that the system of hiring and re-training a guy to get that effect is annoying. It doesn't matter if everyone has to go through it, because fairness isn't the problem... the annoyance is. Say if SP didn't save formations, and you had to manually enter the lineup and individual strategy for each game... it's fair for everyone if that happens, but it doesn't make it good.

The drop-down box seems mechanical, but that's just the interface... that can be changed. Say instead of a drop down box, we instead have a scouting screen where you can formally pick the areas of the world you want to look at. Either way, this technique can easily be used to get information or improve upon later on. For example, with a 'mechanical' selection you could see how many people are looking for players in each part of the world... something that can't be done now.

Of course, I have no real idea of how much effort it is to modify those names and the other work associated with the change, either. . With fictional names though, the work is all being done by the team. With real names, you're counting on individual players to do research, and that's not going to be as consistent. Thinking about it more, I think the bottleneck wasn't caused so much by too many names, but by there being no names to enter. Either way, there were countries that weren't covered.

I know I'm in a small minority with little places, but to me those countries are what add to the charm of the idea. If I get tired of US players, I doubt I'll want to just add players from other major soccer playing nations. After all, I'll probably already have those types of players on my team from the transfer market. I'd want maybe one or two players from Bermuda or something, just to add a bit more uniqueness to my roster.

[matt]

Annoying, just because it's a bit difficult. I was being subjective of course . There's no reason for Sjarel to take that as an argument, on the contrary. I believe it's also more a challenge for people who want to change nationality than just clicking them.
It's also the idea itself that seems mechanical to me, not (only) the cover. The fact that something else in the game actually has an influence, I like. (but that's subjective as well)

[sljivovica]

I know I'm in a small minority with little places, but to me those countries are what add to the charm of the idea. If I get tired of US players, I doubt I'll want to just add players from other major soccer playing nations. After all, I'll probably already have those types of players on my team from the transfer market. I'd want maybe one or two players from Bermuda or something, just to add a bit more uniqueness to my roster.

Now just looking at this point, I think the (new) system does a great job.
It allows you to get a Bermuda-youth player by hiring a Bermuda coordinator. It gives you that control, but at the same time it asks for your patience because you have to train your coordinator.
If it wouldn't ask for that patience, you could just switch Youth-coordinator after each youthplayer without a sort of "punishment".
So that's great.

With adding a (few) Bermuda staff-member(s) for each newly registered Bermuda player, it will (on the long run) give all countries a fair representation in the game.

The big flaw at this moment is that not all countries are represented yet. Bermuda probably isn't available yet, and it might be hard to find the names of the real Bermuda Football League staff people, if there even is such a league
I think this slows down the adding of new names/countries to the game, a lot of people are willing to help, but for such small countries it is very hard
But.... if you really really want Bermuda, SP gives you the opportunity to send names to Hoevi, so even if thing's aren't there, you can help. Very nice feature in my opinion.

(Another flaw is that I would like to see Thierry Henry moved from England to France in the name-list, and Owen Hargreaves from Germany to England. It would make the names more realistic... but that's off-topic )

Anyway, I talk too much
All in all, I think the changes are a great leap in the right direction, giving more control without making things easier.

[Paul_G]

It allows you to get a Bermuda-youth player by hiring a Bermuda coordinator. It gives you that control, but at the same time it asks for your patience because you have to train your coordinator.
If it wouldn't ask for that patience, you could just switch Youth-coordinator after each youthplayer without a sort of "punishment".

That's a really good way of putting it... or if I decided that I even wanted to advance American soccer a bit, I could switch from one American YC to another, since people who are indifferent will pick up the fully trained co-ordinators I put in the pool and use them to create more US players.

I think there could have been better ways to handle this nationality thing (in case you didn't know my opinion ). But realistically, I suppose we're too far into the change now to switch to something else. There's been a lot of work put into it and another change would cause even more confusion.

Going by the poll I made up, it doesn't seem like not having YC's for given countries is a real problem anymore... so hopefully any inconveniences people have from this point on are going to be very minor.

Anyway, I talk too much.

Yes, that's the truth. You need to learn to make short, concise posts like mine.

[Rinus]

I agree with kolarma1 (among others).

I don't really see anything against having a simple drop down box in the Scout/Youth Coordinator screen with the available nationalities to choose from.

1. It's less complicated

2. It's far more realistic.

3. There would be no need for thousands of YC's on the transfer list (I think people care less about the nationality of their YC's)

4. It's probably not too hard to code

the drop down box could also be a SPFA feature only.

[Rinus]

Another possible solution:

I suspect a large part of the managers here on SP to want players of their own nationality. They now have to go through the hassle of finding a YC of that nationality (which is often not available).

The solution to this problem could be to let managers choose if they want

A: Players of their own nationality

or

B: Players of their YC's nationality

This way the current system remains intact; you can still change your Youth Player's nationality if you want. If you don't: no extra hassle.

[robborover]

2. It's far more realistic.

I don't think clubs in real-life can pick their youth players' nationality!