'Discriminated' positions

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Woko
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Post by Woko » Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:16 pm

keyelpk wrote:i'm not unappy. actualy i proposed for a certian thing to be changed- not to completely
Sure, same as me...
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bunicutzu
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Post by bunicutzu » Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:21 pm

like in reality, there are positions and positions. some are "cheaper" some are more wanted meaning more expensive.

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SBroccoli
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Post by SBroccoli » Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:25 pm

zandyy wrote:I don’t understand the idea here.

At the moment, some positions are worth more than others. An SW is worth less that an LF, that is worth less than an LM, that is worth less than a CM. This is one of the basic fundamentals of the game, and a lot revolves around it. If you make SW’s able to play also as CB’s, you in effect make them more valuable than CB’s, which are now the second-most valuable position.

The hierarchy in value is one of the most basic issues for strategic planning in this game. Experienced managers know how to use this hierarchy. Some do play with SW’s; some would rather invest in CF’s and don’t use RF’s and LF’s. Changing this will change everything basically. And what for? Because someone’s unhappy about receiving an SW as a youth?
Why would this hierachy be so important?

It's interesting to have players at different importance, but why a SW would be rockbottom beats me.

In RL a SW is worth bucketloads of gold.
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Post by zandyy » Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:28 pm

SBroccoli wrote: Why would this hierachy be so important?
This specific hierarchy isn’t holy, and as you say it is not even realistic, but if you change it now, whole teams’ valuations will alter extremely, and that will be even less realistic, nor fair. Every idea has pros and cons and in this case it seems to me the cons outweigh the pros by a mile. It sounds more of an opportunistic idea than anything else - and I apologise if that wasn't the intension of the author, but this is what it comes down to.

And anyway, in any hierarchy there has to be one position that is the least valuable. Here, as things stand it is SW. It could have been another position. Does it matter in essence?

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Post by dragosh*** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:57 pm

SBroccoli wrote:Why would this hierachy be so important?

It's interesting to have players at different importance, but why a SW would be rockbottom beats me.

In RL a SW is worth bucketloads of gold.
In soccerproject there are few managers that play with a 5 defenders tactic, where SW's can play at their best in the middle between the CB's.
As a result they are not bided and their price is lower than the price of the same players on other positions.
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Post by gerben » Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:09 pm

sweepers are players who can play at each position, left, middle, right. mostly behind the other defenders. why is asweeper here only useful in a 5 man defending system. he should play good in each position, so he becomes very important. like he is an RB,CB,LB all in one
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SBroccoli
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Post by SBroccoli » Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:00 am

I still don't know if the SW plays in position in 5-4-1 or not???
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Post by cruxify » Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:35 pm

SBroccoli wrote:I still don't know if the SW plays in position in 5-4-1 or not???
Assuming you're asking if SW play effectively in 5-4-1, the answer is yes. Sweeper plays "properly" with 5 men at the back.

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SBroccoli
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Post by SBroccoli » Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:36 pm

In that case, I'd call it an overstatement to call the SWs 'garbage'.
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bunicutzu
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Post by bunicutzu » Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:52 pm

gerben wrote:sweepers are players who can play at each position, left, middle, right. mostly behind the other defenders. why is asweeper here only useful in a 5 man defending system. he should play good in each position, so he becomes very important. like he is an RB,CB,LB all in one
i don't think sweepers are players who play well everywhere (in the defense). In field, the role of a sweeper is in the back of the CBs, the last player in front of the keeper. Like Lothar Matthaeus was. Like Baresi or like Beckenbauer. In the modern football there has been a slight movement of this position in front, becoming a DM (defensive midfielder) so the tactic needing a sweeper is not used anymore.

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terry
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Post by terry » Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:16 pm

bunicutzu wrote:
gerben wrote:sweepers are players who can play at each position, left, middle, right. mostly behind the other defenders. why is asweeper here only useful in a 5 man defending system. he should play good in each position, so he becomes very important. like he is an RB,CB,LB all in one
i don't think sweepers are players who play well everywhere (in the defense). In field, the role of a sweeper is in the back of the CBs, the last player in front of the keeper. Like Lothar Matthaeus was. Like Baresi or like Beckenbauer. In the modern football there has been a slight movement of this position in front, becoming a DM (defensive midfielder) so the tactic needing a sweeper is not used anymore.

But Greece is the reigning European Champion and they played with a SW on the EC 2004. :wink:

So maybe the modern football is wrong? :)
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Post by YouKnowWho » Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:27 am

The biggest problem in 5 man defence formation (where a SW plays it's best) is you still need 2 good CB. And if you already have 2 good Cb you prefer 4 man defence rather than 5 b'cos it gives you more options in midfield/forwards settings.

So people in SP rarely use 5 man defence and the SW become the neglected unfortunate soul.

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Post by YouKnowWho » Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:52 am

The logic is very simple guys. Consider the most costly positions: CB, CM, CF (leaving GK whom you need in a match anyway).

So in SP with 5 defence system you have 2 formation option : 5-4-1 and 5-3-2
In 5-4-1 system you need 2 CB + 2 CM + 1 CF = 5 Costly Positions
In 5-3-2 systems you need 2 CB + 1 CM + 2 CF = 5 Costly Positions

Whereas in 4-3-3 and 3-4-3 formations
4-3-3: 2 CB + 1 CM + 1CF = 4 Costly Positions
3-4-3: 1 CB + 2 CM + 1 CF = 4 Costly Positions

The most costliest strategy is 3-5-2 and 4-5-1 so they are rarely used.

In SP there is no special points awarded for your formation strategy so people will always prefer a low cost strategy. That's why most of them play with 4-3-3 or 3-4-3.

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SBroccoli
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Post by SBroccoli » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:37 am

Partially true, but the actual formation isn't always about cost, but also tactics.

So even if a 5-4-1 might be a more expensive formation, it could still pay off.
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SBroccoli
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Post by SBroccoli » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:37 am

Btw.: exactly how big a penalty does a SW get for playing CB, LB or RB?
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