Added value of this statistics

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Frrfrr
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Added value of this statistics

Post by Frrfrr » Tue May 20, 2008 9:40 am

Top Managers
1Dark Tiger
2snuf
3Meix
4Rinia
5Badbuffalo
6makanakis
7JOY
8Daarneok
9PatrickV
10nvdb

could I understand why are they top managers? what those guys made special in this game except the fact they joined this game among the first one and they play/win a lot of friendly matches? Dark Tiger, Rinia at least won once SP cup, but the rest???
nothing personal, but it seems pretty "strange" such a statistics ... why makanakis with team struggling around C is 6th top manager???
should not be deleted? what is its added value? ... some new could be made? just seems funny they are exhibited as best ones and if you search real performance ...
I think Skunks (3*A divi win) or Maccbi Natanya (2*A divi win + 1*SP cup) or noppp (1*A divi win + 2*SP cup win) or Isis (2*SP cup win) or Westel (2*SP cup win) or some teams played till season 13 which i dont know exactly their previous names, while they disappeared already or in my eyes also AS Vlalex, should be there for obvious reasons ... not the guys currently exhibited ...

gabitza23
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Post by gabitza23 » Tue May 20, 2008 10:28 am

you are right :)
Manager: Gabitza23
Team : Bombalaii Zalau
Division : A

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sljivovica
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Post by sljivovica » Tue May 20, 2008 3:49 pm

It has been discussed before, I agree.

Results from long long time ago should count less, and more recent results should count more.
FC Wageningen
S2: started in E.34
S13 - S19..: B.2
S20..: A!! (12th)
S21 - S22: B.2
S23..: A!! (15e)
S24-26: B.2 (12e)
S27 & onwards: C-division and lower.
Currently (S41): E.45

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PipkiN
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Post by PipkiN » Tue May 20, 2008 4:21 pm

In other words, Frrfrr wants himself to be mentioned there :lol:
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cercel_jr
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Post by cercel_jr » Tue May 20, 2008 4:47 pm

PipkiN wrote:In other words, Frrfrr wants himself to be mentioned there :lol:
And if it is so than he is right to want to be there.
Lot's of the managers consider him the best manager of SP, among others, he is also very popular.

I agree that the new and valuable performances should be there, like 2 times A division winner or 2 times SP cup winner... These are the trophees that matter the most, not some points made with weaker teams than you.
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Team: Fotbal Club Botosani

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Sjarel
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Post by Sjarel » Tue May 20, 2008 7:09 pm

I personnally think the ELO-system is the best system to use here. Only difficulty here is to decide on the weight of each type of game: L, C, Fr or FrC
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Frrfrr
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Post by Frrfrr » Tue May 20, 2008 7:36 pm

Sjarel wrote:I personnally think the ELO-system is the best system to use here. Only difficulty here is to decide on the weight of each type of game: L, C, Fr or FrC
there are generally 2 ways how to make it

The first as you said elo - evaluating long term success

the weights are easy
Leagues
win of the game in lowest division 10points currently H
20points win in G
40 in F
80 in E
160 in D
320 in C
640 in B
1280 in A

Cup
win of the game 2 * points of the team from lower divi ... e.g.
guys from G plays with E. lower is G so basic is 20points then *2 = total 40 points

Friendly cups
win of the game same like Cup but insted *2 use /2 so in this case gain would be 10 points

Friendly match
win of the game same like Cup but instead of 2* use /5 so in this case gain would be 4 points

draw and loss would be some % of win gain

Friendly games would be rated much more precisly with much lower values then now.
Means 1 season in A could be more then +30 seasons in G what is even reasonable while being even 100 seasons in G is no success :)
Anyway the system then support long term strategy keeping winning in highest divisions - as you made once statistics - who is the longest in A :)

The second - non elo very easy - evaluating top succes in game

top A divi
4th place 3 points
3rd place 6 points
2nd place 12 points
1st place 24 points

SP cup
4th place 2 points
3rd place 4 points
2nd place 8 points
1st place 16 points

maybe open friendly tournament win with 32 participants with some serious fee could be 1 point ...

the rest no points :)

maybe both statistics could be implemented :)

Razvanica
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Post by Razvanica » Tue May 20, 2008 7:58 pm

I think the problem with this kind of "scoring" system is that managers that joined SP in the first 2-3 seasons will always be "top managers" because they can never be caught.
I believe that a system inspired by the ATP rating system, with managers having to repeat their performances to keep their points, would be more realistic.

Sjarel
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Post by Sjarel » Tue May 20, 2008 8:48 pm

In fact the ELO-system gets you points based on the rating of your opponent, not the league you are in. What I meant is that the importance of a league game should be higher than the importance of a friendly.
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Frrfrr
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Post by Frrfrr » Wed May 21, 2008 6:37 am

Sjarel wrote:In fact the ELO-system gets you points based on the rating of your opponent, not the league you are in. What I meant is that the importance of a league game should be higher than the importance of a friendly.
ok now I got the point ... I thought you named elo the system you presented but you proly meant similar system like in chess ...

But I am not sure if this is suitable, while you have anyway short term distribution of "elo" through divisions. Who is in F would have anyway around e.g. 1600, the higher division would also increase ELO. Dropping the division - some loosers would loose also in ELO.

Before elo was in chess rating system, where you were marked by division as it is now in SP :). This would just copy current distribution of players in divisions. Elo was developed after to make more scaled distribution instead of having many players in bunch (division). 2 people could be before in 1 division but now they could have elo - one e.g. 1700 and other 1750. I believe in this system division distribution what is in SP is very cool for this short time distribution.

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PipkiN
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Post by PipkiN » Wed May 21, 2008 10:39 am

Cercel, no offense, but Frrfrr's win(s) have no weight in Czech community, 'cause we know he did not succeed "clearly" ..
Other info via PM..

And I think this system should be left as it is, it's some kind of a reward for those, who invest their time into this game..
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Razvanica
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Post by Razvanica » Wed May 21, 2008 11:23 am

PipkiN wrote:Cercel, no offense, but Frrfrr's win(s) have no weight in Czech community, 'cause we know he did not succeed "clearly" ..
Come on, he is one of the best managers... He might not be in the "all time" top 10 manager, but let's have a look at this top 10. Today, at 11 am:

1.Dark Tiger
2.Meix
3.snuf
4.Rinia
5.Badbuffalo
6.makanakis
7.JOY
8.Daarneok
9.PatrickV
10.nvdb

First of all, I don't even know how this top 10 is calculated because these managers are not the managers with the highest number of points.
Now, if we look at their performances, we can see that we have no div.A winner and we only have 2 SP cup winners. Hell, we even have 4 managers who never played in A. You really think these are the best managers?
They have only one thing in common: they all joined SP before season 6 (most of them even before season 3).
If we take a look at the top 10 managers with the highest number of points, the situation changes a little: 3 div. A winners, 4 SP cup winners. But we can still notice that except Vlalex who joined SP in season 5, all the others were here from season 1 or 2.
So I can not wonder if the ELO system is really working because I can see that number of games is much more important than performances in this top. I mean, asiskunk won A 3 times in a row and he is placed 212th :lol: Is that just because he started in season 8?

Sjarel
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Post by Sjarel » Wed May 21, 2008 11:35 am

PipkiN wrote:Cercel, no offense, but Frrfrr's win(s) have no weight in Czech community, 'cause we know he did not succeed "clearly" ..
Other info via PM..

And I think this system should be left as it is, it's some kind of a reward for those, who invest their time into this game..
This kind of accusations are very low and should certainly not be made in public. You know that very well !

If you have any proof of cheating, create a cheatreport and the sheriffs will handle the case. If not, an apology would be suited here.
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PipkiN
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Post by PipkiN » Wed May 21, 2008 3:11 pm

I apologize to all other managers that I made it public.
It was handled before, but the punishment.... Well, no more words.. :?

The Top10 reflects best MANAGERS, people, who can succeed both in friendly and official matches (by earning points). It does not show someone, who easily buy'n'sell whole team to get on the top and that's why I think it's a good ladder.
We don't need a top10 buyers' ladder..
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Razvanica
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Post by Razvanica » Wed May 21, 2008 3:55 pm

PipkiN wrote:The Top10 reflects best MANAGERS, people, who can succeed both in friendly and official matches (by earning points).
Agree, but my problem is that those managers did not succeed in official matches. I am not saying that friendlies should not count, but when noppp is 46th, Sly is 152nd, asiskunk is 212nd I believe that something is obviously going wrong. I mean, no offence, but these guys are the references in SP.
PipkiN wrote:It does not show someone, who easily buy'n'sell whole team to get on the top and that's why I think it's a good ladder.

But instead it shows someone who never resisted in division C, who never got in the last week of the SP Cup and who won 70 friendly cups :lol:

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