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PipkiN
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Post by PipkiN » Wed May 21, 2008 4:06 pm

If he plays still in C, he plays, it's his way how he plays SP..
The game is not all about winning SP cup and A division, it is here to make fun.
Those as you between the lines say "shitty" managers who did not succeed in top official matches in top leagues can be at the top, because they don't bother about those competitions. Otherwise, when some of the winners are not on the top, it means they don't play as much games as they could and they focus their managing to officials, not to frendlies, where they does not earn as much ladder points.

So I think the ladder is fair to those who play this game more for fun, not for official results.
Personally, I don't like Frrfrr and his will or wish to be mentioned everywhere possible.. :?
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spootytown
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Post by spootytown » Wed May 21, 2008 4:16 pm

Why not set up a point system based on the opponents line ratings? Beat a great team, get more points. In Frrfrrs case, is a win over Sokol (currently 2nd place) the same as a win over XAR (who clearly is rebuilding)?

Similarly, one shouldn't lose as many points if their opponent has a great line rating. Here's a great match as an example:
http://www.soccerproject.com/spnewl_gam ... &season=23

This was like Manchester United playing children! I'm not condemning Frrfrr, just saying that he should get very little credit for beating a very new team. Nor should Andromeda be penalized for losing a match they have no chance at winning.

If you do this, you will automatically be giving more points to those teams that play tougher schedules. Teams that can get to A and B (and stay there for a while), or progress deep into Cups, will be rewarded.

And unlike overall rating, it's a better assessment of your opponent in that particular match. I beat an A team once when I was in H in a friendly cup--if we went off ratings, I beat a monster! But he didn't play his best players at all, so did I beat a team with a high rating, or did I beat a team with a low line rating? I think the latter is the truth.

This might be difficult to implement, but I think it would paint the most accurate picture.

As an aside, why do friendlies count? I think it should only be league and Cup games. Does anybody think that what make Manchester or Chelsea special is their performance in friendlies? Let those matches be about gaining morale and experience for the rest of the squad, and make your name in the league and Cup!

Razvanica
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Post by Razvanica » Wed May 21, 2008 4:37 pm

PipkiN wrote:So I think the ladder is fair to those who play this game more for fun, not for official results.
You are saying that guys who are hunting H teams on the friendlies pool are great managers and they are doing it for fun, while the guys who are making money are just some creeps. I believe you should take a look at some of the guys you are defending :lol:
You know, everybody plays SP for fun, and I really think is hard to measure who is having more fun. Meanwhile, a hall of fame should contain the most successful managers, even if we don't like them.
I understand you don't like FrrFrr and his manner of playing this game, but I really think you shouldn't be so stubborn and you should accept that this top 10 makes no sense.
PS: No one from the top 10 managers, those guys who are doing it for fun and who are more interested in friendlies, ever won Ch League or UEFA
Last edited by Razvanica on Thu May 22, 2008 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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cruxify
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Post by cruxify » Thu May 22, 2008 7:38 am

Spooty's idea sounds great, but would be pretty difficult to implement.

Sjarel, would it be possible?

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Post by Frrfrr » Thu May 22, 2008 10:08 am

Forum rules

7. Cheat accusations do not belong on the forum. Use the system in the game for this. See the menu: Manager - Other managers - Cheaters . The developers look at every accusation, so there is no need to start a topic about it on the forum. Managers who think that it is necessary even though it's not allowed, will receive a warning, and the topic will be deleted.
PipkiN wrote:I apologize to all other managers that I made it public.
It was handled before, but the punishment.... Well, no more words.. :?
I think this is very nice example how someone is farting on the rules even after warning ... and generally, there is completly no defence versus such a clever guys knowing better the things then sheriffs. :(

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Post by zandyy » Thu May 22, 2008 11:41 am

Surely, there's a story here. Shouldn't we all be allowed to know what the manager of the best team here has been accused of and what sort of penalty he got? And if he was falsely accused - shouldn't the accusers be penalised?

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Post by Frrfrr » Thu May 22, 2008 12:44 pm

zandyy wrote:Surely, there's a story here. Shouldn't we all be allowed to know what the manager of the best team here has been accused of and what sort of penalty he got? And if he was falsely accused - shouldn't the accusers be penalised?
I would be happy to clarify, but
1. I have no problems with sheriffs, so from this point of view the issue is closed. For majority of my transfers I accuse myself the transfer to be checked by sheriffs. Additionally, I see I am even not only one who is accusing me :), so there are tons of accusations on me :)
2. I am constantly accused for some bul*sh*t on the forum. but until the deletion of the posts I became anyway "cheater" and sheriffs are recognised having different measurement on different people/divisions doing the job badly.
3. After accusation, the forum rules are clear - topics are deleted
4. so instead of making clear even more rumours come out of this
5. Noone from sheriffs - or representatives does not want to make any public statement about it respecting point 1 and 3.
6. additional rumours are created regularly later deleted from forum, but just after the people read it :)

I already accepted people like Pipkin - full of hate, jalousy and other popular "skill" will constantly make some points. I may only ignore it :( - this was also advise I got when I explained this to SP representatives :)
I would not support any penalties for accusators who do report directly to sheriffs, they only "clean" the game :) I think this may only help :)
But the ones who make it even after warning publicly on forum, this would proly help ...

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Korsarul_negru
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Post by Korsarul_negru » Thu May 22, 2008 12:51 pm

I think we're loosing the point here. Some of us ar off topic, so let's get back to the subject :roll:
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PipkiN
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Post by PipkiN » Thu May 22, 2008 2:41 pm

Haha full of hate ? I'm surely not full of hate or jealous, I am always laughing when you post or want something like you did here. There is no real need to change that ladder, only your egoistic hunt to get your name there. I respect those who are on the top there even though they did not won any of the big trophies, why do I so ? Because those people play SP for a long time, they enjoy playing it and for this they deserve to have their own ladder. Try refreshing the page, maybe A-division ladder will appear and you will be satisfied seeing your manager name at the top. But please, stop asking and willing to place your name everywhere possible. Some managers respect you, some managers hate you (probably they know a lot about some fair "trades"), some are neutral, but I can say that majority of Czechs are tired with your neverending wishes to be mentioned on and on..

edit: play your A and play friendlies and cups and you will be surely in top10, but stop throwing shits that this ladder is stupid or strange or shows nothing. You cannot have everything, but you should know this from real life..
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spootytown
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Post by spootytown » Thu May 22, 2008 5:01 pm

Wow, this thread has regressed downhill fast!

To cruxify, thanks--I know it sounds difficult, but I was thinking of some way to make the points more meaningful. I certainly don't want anything cumbersome or that will slow down simulations.

I can think of maybe one other idea, and that would be a Hall of Fame, where players can become a member for certain milestones. Win SP Cup, win A league, 500 wins, etc. Doing this would award those players who have achieved at the highest levels (Isis, Skunks for example) as well as those who have done well over long periods of time (Dark Tiger, one of only 6 managers with 500+ wins).

But back to the subject list, this list appears on the front page, before any of us log in, or before we join SP. In other words, it's a part of the page that is marketing non-SP members to join. Maybe there are other things that can go there, like the country list, that can entice people to join SP? The A league standings, for example, are easily found inside for SP managers, and aren't really a selling point for non-SP managers...

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Post by Frrfrr » Thu May 22, 2008 7:12 pm

Razvanica wrote:I think the problem with this kind of "scoring" system is that managers that joined SP in the first 2-3 seasons will always be "top managers" because they can never be caught.
thats right. there should be possible to get even for relativly newer managers. additionally, there should be some fresh movement at least once 2 seasons. now is fully stucked and only death of some manager can make some movement there :) (exagerating :))
spootytown wrote:As an aside, why do friendlies count? I think it should only be league and Cup games. Does anybody think that what make Manchester or Chelsea special is their performance in friendlies? Let those matches be about gaining morale and experience for the rest of the squad, and make your name in the league and Cup!
exactly ... maybe also winning friendly open cup with +16 people could count as well ...
Razvanica wrote:I really think is hard to measure who is having more fun. Meanwhile, a hall of fame should contain the most successful managers ...
yeah there should be some objective measurement :)
spootytown wrote:I can think of maybe one other idea, and that would be a Hall of Fame, where players can become a member for certain milestones. Win SP Cup, win A league, 500 wins, etc. Doing this would award those players who have achieved at the highest levels (Isis, Skunks for example) as well as those who have done well over long periods of time (Dark Tiger, one of only 6 managers with 500+ wins).

But back to the subject list, this list appears on the front page, before any of us log in, or before we join SP. In other words, it's a part of the page that is marketing non-SP members to join. Maybe there are other things that can go there, like the country list, that can entice people to join SP?
this I also saw in more games ... and is really catching attention of newcomers ...

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sljivovica
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Post by sljivovica » Thu May 22, 2008 8:36 pm

Purely On Topic (please keep it that way guys)

I think the current list can stay, but not as a top-10 managers-list.
I could accept it as a Top-10 managers of all times list.

Besides that, I would love to see a new list where current top-managers get the recognition they deserve.

The ELO-system sounds interesting.
I would rate League-games and SP-Cup-games at 100%, Friendly Cup-games at 20%, and normal friendly games at 10%.

I use friendly games just for keeping morale up. I don't care about the level of opponent or winning at all (not even for TS). I usually choose opponents based on country or team-name :wink:

Friendly Cup-games shouldn't be rated to high either, for it's easy to find a cheap cup with only bad opponents. Good teams could go and play for ELO-points instead of money, and even in cheap or free cups the H-teams can't get to the semi-finals anymore...
That would be sad.

The question is, can the ELO-system see a difference between A-teams and F-teams?
I thought every team starts with a certain amount of points, right? Like 1000. Then, based on the opponent you beat, it grows, etcetera.
Maybe you can start by giving H-teams 800 points, G-teams 900, F-teams 1000, up to 2000 for A-teams??
Wouldn't that make sense Sjarel?
Also, if you do it that way, you don't have to make a difference in the formula between teams from different divisions. It would pretty much solve itself.
FC Wageningen
S2: started in E.34
S13 - S19..: B.2
S20..: A!! (12th)
S21 - S22: B.2
S23..: A!! (15e)
S24-26: B.2 (12e)
S27 & onwards: C-division and lower.
Currently (S41): E.45

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sljivovica
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Post by sljivovica » Thu May 22, 2008 8:47 pm

FC Wageningen
S2: started in E.34
S13 - S19..: B.2
S20..: A!! (12th)
S21 - S22: B.2
S23..: A!! (15e)
S24-26: B.2 (12e)
S27 & onwards: C-division and lower.
Currently (S41): E.45

Razvanica
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Post by Razvanica » Thu May 22, 2008 9:38 pm

sljivovica wrote:I could accept it as a Top-10 managers of all times list.
And that's exactly what it's not :roll:

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Post by Sjarel » Thu May 22, 2008 10:21 pm

Never thought of that one, taking into account the number of goals. Interesting ...

Anyway, I've been close to implementing this in the past (being a chess player myself), but struggled to find the correct percentages for each type of game. Maybe I'll have to accept there are no perfect values in this case.

To start I would indeed give each team an arbitrary number of elo-points, based on the division they are in.
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