Coach prestige

[zandyy]

My suggestion is for the coach to be able to gather ‘prestige’ points that influence the team’s performance.

The actual scale is debatable and the following is just an example:
A coach that leads a team to promotion will receive one ‘star’ as long as he served as coach for at least a full season preceding the promotion, and as long as the team is in leagues A, B, C or D. A coach loses a star when the team gets relegated. A coach can gather up to 3 stars. A coach can also win a star by winning the A League or the SP Cup. Each coach star will improve performance by 1 point a game. The coach’s salary demands would increase / decrease steeply, accordingly.

This feature will reduce lay-offs of coaches to improve morale. It will reflect the reality of ‘celebrity coaches’ better. It will also make coach salaries more of a consideration for high-division teams, which can afford it. It will make the coach function much more interesting than the basically meaningless current role. The signing of coaches will also become more interesting. And I think it is a relatively simple feature to implement, as the stars are allocated / taken away only once a season.

Admittedly, I haven’t thought it through sufficiently. Any thoughts?

The main problem I see with this so far is that teams currently in D would have an advantage over teams that spend many seasons at A without winning it or winning the Cup, as it would be easier for their coach to gather stars. I’m not sure how big a problem this is, but a way to solve it would be to limit the star system to less leagues, say A and B only.

[zandyy]

Oh and it would be great if those that voted 'no' can explain what's wrong with the idea? Thanks!

[killer1982]

I like this idea - needs refinement, but is good and new

[Black_eagle]

hmm. i dont like it.Promotions, wins and all the achievements are your work.All the coach does is train your players.nothing more.why would he receive rating for things he doesnt do?

[killer1982]

hmm. i dont like it.Promotions, wins and all the achievements are your work.All the coach does is train your players.nothing more.why would he receive rating for things he doesnt do?

you do know that the coach is not a real person? Whatever extra ability he gets from this, will be due to your efforts and will benefit you, as your tem will perform better, so I find it hard to see the point you are making. But perhaps to satisfy you, the stars could be given to the managers, and have the same influence that zandyy is suggesting?

[zandyy]

But perhaps to satisfy you, the stars could be given to the managers, and have the same influence that zandyy is suggesting?

I understand Black_eagle’s point. The reason I suggested the stars will be given to the coach rather than the manager is that this way there could be a price to pay for the improved performance in the form of higher wages and loss of ability to sack coach to improve morale.

But to connect Black_Eagle’s point to Frrfrr’s posting (http://forum.soccerproject.com/viewtopic.php?t=119274), this can be a way to reward recent good form.

[spootytown]

Can someone explain the reasoning behind improved morale when a coach is sacked in SP? I know some players use it to get a boost, no matter how good their team. I cannot imagine Manchester United sacking Alex Ferguson right before the Champions League Final--the players and fans would be in shock and be devastated. Yet it seems that several of the previous SP Cup winners have done just that, with success.

Teams that are doing well should be penalized for sacking their coach! The only time a removal should boost team morale is when the previous coach has done poorly, or if you are replacing the coach with someone better. Fire a "100% coach" of a cup final team (and replace him with a "50% coach", or even another 100% coach), and in real life, team spirit would fall right along with fan satisfaction.

But back to the topic, I think that team spirit is already tied to team performance, so we don't also need the stars. Recent good form is already rewarded. Plus, it only rewards certain teams--under your system, a team that finished 2nd in C, then 2nd in B, then relegated, would still have 1 star, while a team that finished 3rd in A three straight years (a far greater accomplishment) would have 0 stars.

[Razvanica]

Alex Ferguson is not a coach, he's a manager. I agree with everything else you said.

[Zé da Silva]

Players don't get a morale boost if you sack your coach. They get a boost if you hire a new one. Of course you have to sack the earlier one but if you don't hire anyone the players will remain with the same morale.

And incidentally, if you sack a coach which has not stayed at the club long enough, then and only then players would see their morale decrease.

On a side note, the Spanish players learned that Luis Aragones would leave to Fenerbahçe midway through Euro 2008 and still managed to win it.

[spootytown]

I understand what you are saying Raz, but you knew what I meant in my example. Obviously in SP, the human is both manager and club owner, a role quite unlike football reality. In SP, the manager will never be sacked, thus the "leader" with the most power that can be sacked and replaced is the coach.

To Ze, yes, I put the emphasis incorrectly on the sacking part, and not the hiring part, although one must be done before the other, and a coach-less team wasn't considered, so I used them interchangeably.

But let me break it down, and see if any of this makes sense:
--a coach is sacked, and is not replaced (and morale stays the same? players don't care?)
--a good coach (most likely at 100%) is sacked and replaced by someone new and poor (most likely not 100%), and the players are happier?
--a successful old coach that is there a long time and sacked and replaced (even by a poor coach with no experience) will produce a positive morale, but if that new coach is quickly sacked and replaced (even by someone better), morale will go down?

None of that really makes sense to me, be the position 'manager' or 'coach'...

As for Aragones, he wasn't sacked, nor did it happen on the eve of the finals. He announced he'd be leaving AFTER the tournament--he was there until the very end! Same with Scolari, announcing with Chelsea but not getting sacked, nor abandoning his team.

[killer1982]

guys, stay on topic. Your discussion about sacking and hiring coach is interesting, but not really related to Zandyy's proposal, so start a new thread on it, so we can discsuss Zandyy's proposal here.

It is not true that team spirit is linked to performance - you can lose games and still gain in TS. Team spirit is the effect of the team playing together - it drops when you buy or sell players, and it increases when you play games, regardless of result (but more from league and cup, less from friendlies).

So I still think Zandyy's proposal has merits - it rewards the team for its performance. I do agree that there needs to be some adjustment to account for the real achievement (the example of staying third in Div. A several seasons), but as an idea I think it is great.

[zandyy]

… it only rewards certain teams--under your system, a team that finished 2nd in C, then 2nd in B, then relegated, would still have 1 star, while a team that finished 3rd in A three straight years (a far greater accomplishment) would have 0 stars.

I agree. I therefore suggest that a coach whose team manages to avoid relegation in A for two consecutive seasons would also get a star. This should solve the problem you presented.

I think that team spirit is already tied to team performance, so we don't also need the stars. Recent good form is already rewarded.

Team spirit influences team performance, but not vice versa. Recent good form is tied to fan base which is ties to attendance, and the effect of which was very recently increased. What’s suggested here is a link between continuous bottom-line success and team performance: on one side is the big picture, success of failure per season, not just the 5-game sequence that’s currently used; on the other, the actual performance of a team in a match, that total you see on the match report broken into defence, midfield and attack – the total number of that (say it’s 140), increasing by 1 point per coach star. I hope this clarifies the suggestion.

Obviously in SP, the human is both manager and club owner, a role quite unlike football reality. In SP, the manager will never be sacked, thus the "leader" with the most power that can be sacked and replaced is the coach.

I agree. The distinction between owner, manager and coach in SP is very different than in real life. Out of these three, if we want to reflect and reward prestige of a person in charge, it makes most sense to associate in with the coach position, which is currently meaningless. If we were to reward the stars to the manager (= the human) rather than the coach, the problem would be to inflict the penalty (= higher salary demands).

There are four kinds of new features: one that comes to reflect reality better; one that comes to solve a problem, either logical or technical; one that improves efficiency or interface; and one that adds fun, complexity and interest. This suggestion has aspects of all, but mostly of the last kind – it will simply make things more interesting, which is what SP have continuously done in the past.

[spootytown]

Maybe I am missing something here...

Team spirit IS linked to performance, and vice versa. Yes, you can gain some TS regardless of outcome, but do you not gain more team spirit for wins than for losses? Do you not gain more team spirit for draws than losses? Perform well, and you gain more team spirit (or gain it faster, however you want to put it). This is already in SP.

And team spirit already has an effect on your teams performance too, so if two teams that are "equal" meet up, but one has vastly more team spirit, the higher TS team will have higher line ratings, and thus win more often.

It's a bit circular, but basically winning makes it easier to gain team spirit, which makes it easier to win, which increases TS faster, and so on.

I think SP already has multiple rewards for performance: team spirit, fan base, end of season bonus for top 5 performance, manager points, etc. and that's why I wasn't a fan of Zandy's idea. Not a bad idea, just seems like it was already addressed.

[zandyy]

I don’t think what you say is correct, and if it is – it’s news to me.

I think you gain TS regardless of score. Score (recent form) affects attendance, not performance, and attendance does not affect performance. Promotion and relegation affect fans number, which in turn affects attendance, not performance.

What currently affects performance is players skills, formation, individual orders, aggression and TS.

There is nothing at present which connects directly or indirectly promotion and relegation and / or consistency to performance, apart from short-term consistency (5 last games), through TS.

Am I wrong?

[Werder_fan]

You gain TS regardless of score,but you gain MORE TS if you win then if you draw or lose.

Moreover,promotion and relegation affect fans number,thus the attendance is influenced.If attendance is influenced,the income from ticket sales as also influenced and this has effect on the budget and the possibilities of buying good players.Therefore,promotion and relegation HAVE influence on performance,although rather indirectly.