reject transfer

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gazza88
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reject transfer

Post by gazza88 » Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:19 pm

how about an option to reject an offer for a player,

if someone receives an unrealistic offer for a player they should be able to reject the bid.
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bedfil254187
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Re: reject transfer

Post by bedfil254187 » Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:16 am

Why should I reject a 50000000 transfer on a 300k player? If I'm not cheating why should care?
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Razvanica
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Re: reject transfer

Post by Razvanica » Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:18 am

bedfil254187 wrote:Why should I reject a 50000000 transfer on a 300k player? If I'm not cheating why should care?
Because if the player is worth 300k and you have an offer of 50M you are cheating...
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sljivovica
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Re: reject transfer

Post by sljivovica » Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:00 pm

Razvanica wrote:Because if the player is worth 300k and you have an offer of 50M you are cheating...
No, then you are not cheating.
In SoccerProject it becomes cheating if you don't report it, though.

If I sell a player and think he's worth 1M, so i still hope i can get 2M, but somebody offers 3M.
What do I do? Just take the money and hope nobody sees it? I don't think it's cheating.
Sure, at 10M or 15M it is obvious, but still...

It simply creates problems when managers can't see when it becomes cheating or not..
1 Million for a 74 GR player, cheating or not? There's always a line, sheriffs decide and managers have to guess and pray...

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Re: reject transfer

Post by Razvanica » Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:56 am

No, it's simple. You go on the transfer page, you look the offers for similar players and if you have an offer 50% higher than any other offer for similar players you should also check the overview (maybe it's a normal fluctuation of the market). If the team is H team you should report it directly... Everybody wants to make profit but this is not the right method. To answer your question, if you have a player you evaluate at 1M and hope to get 2M but the offer is 3M... it depends :lol: If you had an offer of 1M and another team offers 3M directly, than you should report it and I would consider cheating not doing this. If the offer grows slowly and 2 or more teams fight for the player, than I see no problem with it. I am sure you understand what is wrong and right, otherwise you wouldn't have played in A division. If you could get there without being banned, so should any other correct manager.

On-topic: I don't agree with the feature. Refusing an offer can be a feature that helps cheaters.
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bunicutzu
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Re: reject transfer

Post by bunicutzu » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:14 pm

most of all, refusing an offer can make way for discrimination, which must not be alowed.

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sljivovica
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Re: reject transfer

Post by sljivovica » Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:31 pm

Razvanica wrote:If you had an offer of 1M and another team offers 3M directly, than you should report it and I would consider cheating not doing this.
Razvanica wrote:If the offer grows slowly and 2 or more teams fight for the player, than I see no problem with it. I am sure you understand what is wrong and right, otherwise you wouldn't have played in A division.
I'm not sure if I agree. What if it's 2.5 million? What if it's 2.2? It's hard to tell when you should report, even for an experienced manager like me.
Plus this is also important: Managers who report other teams to the sheriffs, they cannot see if there was a competition for the player.
I wonder if the sheriffs can.
Razvanica wrote:If you could get there without being banned, so should any other correct manager.
Thanks dude, you say I'm no better than any other manager :x :mrgreen:
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S2: started in E.34
S13 - S19..: B.2
S20..: A!! (12th)
S21 - S22: B.2
S23..: A!! (15e)
S24-26: B.2 (12e)
S27 & onwards: C-division and lower.
Currently (S41): E.45

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SBroccoli
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Re: reject transfer

Post by SBroccoli » Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:21 pm

I find the rule set at this point hazy at best and wrecked at worst.

You seriously think I should go check the overview and calculate the mean transferprices each time I sell a player? Just in order to decide if I should notify a sheriff? C'mon!

If you want that kind of nitty-gritty control that takes away some of my precious time for the game, I'd need at least some info FROM the game. Like the average transfer sums for that kind of player (GR/morale/age/whatever) during the past - say - 2 weeks. Plus a hard-core rule of like 'all transfers over 3 times the average must be reported' (but again, why? If that's it, why can't you guys look it up yourselves?).

That way I'd at least have an idea what to react on.

As it is now you can buy the same value of player within a range of about 500%. There's no cheating involved, it's simply a matter of who's on the spot when the deal is done.

So, bottomline, I don't really think your example of 3 million for a '1 million' player is a good one. There's no cheating involved and I haven't seen any rule saying you need to have pitty on stupid newbs. Why should I?
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Re: reject transfer

Post by Razvanica » Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:56 pm

Oh, come on, you are talking like suspicions raise after every single transfer you do. Slivo started this because of a guy who was playing with his brother, girlfriend and father from the same IP. As dardar said, 99,9% of the banned managers are guilty so I don't really see the point of this discussion as nobody was discriminated. If you don't have time to check the teams trying to buy your player, you can just report by yourself every transfer you do and keep the sheriffs busy.
I heard hundreds of time the argument "I don't do anything wrong, I just take advantage of new managers". I agree, it's normal to do this. But it's one thing selling a 26 years CB with BP 56 to a H team for 500k and selling the same player to the same team for 5M. You are talking like you get an unrealistic offers every day and you can't handle it anymore. It's not maths that you need, it's common sense... If you expect to get 2M and you get 5M, I think you can find 5 minutes and take a look at the transfer overview just to be sure. I find it normal to report these situations and don't worry, if you don't do it somebody else will eventually send the report.
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Re: reject transfer

Post by Howl » Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:58 am

This issue is the absolute worst part of this game - there is an abstract line called 'reasonable' and each of us is called upon to predict where that line may fall, lest we lose our teams. There is absolutely no guidance provided about what is 'reasonable'. Moreover, the moment we try to discuss specifics on the forum, someone closes down the topic.

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Re: reject transfer

Post by Sjarel » Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:55 pm

Howl wrote:This issue is the absolute worst part of this game - there is an abstract line called 'reasonable' and each of us is called upon to predict where that line may fall, lest we lose our teams. There is absolutely no guidance provided about what is 'reasonable'. Moreover, the moment we try to discuss specifics on the forum, someone closes down the topic.
I disagree. Topics are only closed when specific bans are discussed. I'd love to see a discussion about this, because I agree it's a very difficult topic.
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Howl
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Re: reject transfer

Post by Howl » Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:40 am

Sjarel wrote:I disagree. Topics are only closed when specific bans are discussed. I'd love to see a discussion about this, because I agree it's a very difficult topic.
Thank you for your reply, my friend....

It is difficult to resolve this sort of topic without having specific bans to refer to. The word 'reasonable' is, by nature, incredibly abstract. What is reasonable to one may be incredibly unreasonable to another. However, this sort of rule requires someone to judge what is reasonable. The problem lies in assessing where that line actually is.

I believe that this conversation did a perfect job of capturing what I'm saying....
sljivovica wrote:
Razvanica wrote:If you had an offer of 1M and another team offers 3M directly, than you should report it and I would consider cheating not doing this.
Razvanica wrote:If the offer grows slowly and 2 or more teams fight for the player, than I see no problem with it. I am sure you understand what is wrong and right, otherwise you wouldn't have played in A division.
I'm not sure if I agree. What if it's 2.5 million? What if it's 2.2? It's hard to tell when you should report, even for an experienced manager like me.
Let's say that I was considering selling a 25 year old RB, with an aggression of 85 and a best performance of 68. What would be a reasonable amount to accept for him?

To try to figure this out, I went into 'Overviews' and searched for players whose stats are in that general area. Here is what I found....

24) RB Rastislav Hancak (24y, 86aggr, 68bp) € 2.800.000,00
25) RB Joël Zambaz (24y, 88aggr, 69bp) € 2.000.000,00
26) RB Rohan Pritchard (26y, 82aggr, 69bp) € 900.000,00
36) RB Geoffrey Jaspers (24y, 83aggr, 67bp) € 1.650.000,00
43) RB Artur Levenets (24y, 85aggr, 67bp) € 1.500.000,00

Statistically speaking, age is a huge indicator of 'fair value' (as evidenced by the relatively low price that was paid for Pritchard). So, what would be a 'fair value' for my 25 year old RB? Could I take the highest amount paid for a 24 year old, subtract the amount for the 26 year old, find the average variance (per year of age), then add it to the amount paid for the 26 year old?

(2.8-0.9)/2 = 950,000 + 900,000 = 1.85 million

But how can that make sense, when I could have gotten a younger player for significantly less?

Now, if you analyze the four 24 year old players, you see a spread of €1.3 million, despite the fact that all four have a bp b/w 67-69 and aggression of b/w 83-88. Can all of this spread be explained by the psychology of auctions? What if I had a 24 year old RB, with a bp of 68 and aggression of 85. What would be a 'reasonable price' and when would it become cheating?

Let's say that I was offered 3.5 million - that is 233% higher than the lowest price, but only 25% higher than the highest price. Would that be unreasonable?

I am sorry for the long reply....:-)

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Re: reject transfer

Post by Razvanica » Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:14 am

Howl wrote:Let's say that I was offered 3.5 million - that is 233% higher than the lowest price, but only 25% higher than the highest price. Would that be unreasonable?
My opinion on this: if 2 or more teams fight for the player and the offer reaches 3.5M it's ok. If he is on the list with 500k starting price and all of the sudden some G or H team comes with a 3.5M offer, you should report it. You just have to think that sheriffs are not some super-humans with the ultimate ability to distinguish between right and wrong. They are just like you and me, so anything that seems suspect or unreasonable to you, you should report it.
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cruxify
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Re: reject transfer

Post by cruxify » Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:05 am

Razvanica wrote:
Howl wrote:Let's say that I was offered 3.5 million - that is 233% higher than the lowest price, but only 25% higher than the highest price. Would that be unreasonable?
My opinion on this: if 2 or more teams fight for the player and the offer reaches 3.5M it's ok. If he is on the list with 500k starting price and all of the sudden some G or H team comes with a 3.5M offer, you should report it. You just have to think that sheriffs are not some super-humans with the ultimate ability to distinguish between right and wrong. They are just like you and me, so anything that seems suspect or unreasonable to you, you should report it.
Yeah I agree with this, it should only be seen as cheating when the offer is substantially greater than what would be deemed reasonable. The offer would also be one where 99% of people can look at it and agree that it's too much for that player.

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Re: reject transfer

Post by Howl » Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:48 am

Razvanica wrote:
Howl wrote:Let's say that I was offered 3.5 million - that is 233% higher than the lowest price, but only 25% higher than the highest price. Would that be unreasonable?
My opinion on this: if 2 or more teams fight for the player and the offer reaches 3.5M it's ok. If he is on the list with 500k starting price and all of the sudden some G or H team comes with a 3.5M offer, you should report it. You just have to think that sheriffs are not some super-humans with the ultimate ability to distinguish between right and wrong. They are just like you and me, so anything that seems suspect or unreasonable to you, you should report it.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply, my friend.

The problem though is that this is a judgement call and a difficult judgement call at that. What if I developed a psychological attachment to that player, and, in my mind, he was worth €4 million? €3.5million would be completely within reason....

My point throughout this entire exercise has not been to criticize sheriffs - as you say, they are not super-humans with a morality barometer. Rather, they have an incredibly difficult job and they deserve our thanks. My point throughout has been to perhaps further this discussion to that point that we can develop a statistical measure of 'unreasonable'. A line in the sand, so to speak....

Without a statistical measure, we run the risk of unfairly banning a team. Call me a product of the Canadian educational system, but in a just system, it is better to let 99 guilty parties go free than to allow one innocent party to be punished......

And now, let's discuss Socrates.....:-)

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