Friendly cups - restrictions

[Snaak]

I play in the H-league, it's my first season, I am in 1st place, but still, it's almost impossible to get to the next round of a friendly cup, because a lot of G/F-teams and higher participate. This makes it almost impossible to get to the next round of a cup for beginning players.
Sometimes players make cups with names like 'H-only cup', but still players from higher leagues will participate

My idea is that players who create a cup can fill in some parameters, for example they would be able to choose a restriction in league(for example only G and below), or maybe some other restrictions as well. This would make it much more fun to play friendly cups, when you are playing against teams of your own level.

[Razvanica]

That's why you have the possibility to create private cups. You invite only H teams and you can play against teams of your own level.

[killer1982]

See this thread: http://forum.soccerproject.com/viewtopi ... 7&t=117033
- although a majority were in favour, Sjarel was not, and he is...well....King. So it hasn't happened....yet, but the more we advocate, the better the chances to convince Sjarel

[RapidFire]

That's why you have the possibility to create private cups. You invite only H teams and you can play against teams of your own level.

Doesnt sound like much fun... Making a rank limit or a group limit would be much easier.

[killer1982]

That's why you have the possibility to create private cups. You invite only H teams and you can play against teams of your own level.

Doesnt sound like much fun... Making a rank limit or a group limit would be much easier.

Again, I encourage you to see this thread: http://forum.soccerproject.com/viewtopi ... 7&t=117033
This would make it easier to arrange fair (or at least fairer) cups and make it more fun for lower ranking teams, so let's try to convince Sjarel to implement it.
I don't really understand why the private cup is mentioned as the solution - clearly it requires you to know a lot of managers who may wish to join. Why not enable us to make it open to anyone at the same league level?

[spootytown]

[quote="killer1982"][quote="RapidFire"][quote="Razvanica"]That's why you have the possibility to create private cups. You invite only H teams and you can play against teams of your own level.[/quote]
Doesnt sound like much fun... Making a rank limit or a group limit would be much easier.[/quote]
Again, I encourage you to see this thread: http://forum.soccerproject.com/viewtopi ... 7&t=117033
This would make it easier to arrange fair (or at least fairer) cups and make it more fun for lower ranking teams, so let's try to convince Sjarel to implement it.
I don't really understand why the private cup is mentioned as the solution - clearly it requires you to know a lot of managers who may wish to join. Why not enable us to make it open to anyone at the same league level?[/quote]


This doesn't necessarily make things more fair, especially at the league level. Killer, you are in H, but you are hardly 'fair' competition for most H teams. 28-0-0, 178-13 in the league. You must be honest and say that you do not have an H level team--if you were to be able to organize H-only cups, it would be quite UNFAIR. Even Snaak, the original poster, is in 1st place in H, yet has a vastly inferior team to yours.

You have also organized (and won) your own private cups, and appear to have had success in open cups as well. Your own trophy case would seem to indicate that one can do well without this option...

[killer1982]

This doesn't necessarily make things more fair, especially at the league level. Killer, you are in H, but you are hardly 'fair' competition for most H teams. 28-0-0, 178-13 in the league. You must be honest and say that you do not have an H level team--if you were to be able to organize H-only cups, it would be quite UNFAIR. Even Snaak, the original poster, is in 1st place in H, yet has a vastly inferior team to yours.

You have also organized (and won) your own private cups, and appear to have had success in open cups as well. Your own trophy case would seem to indicate that one can do well without this option...

What can I say? I am flattered. Welcome to my fanclub. I have indeed done well without this option, but, and this seems to be difficult for you to understand, I am not making the suggestion because it will make my life easier, but because I think it is a good idea.

However, your points are wrong. I CAN already make an all-H cup, I just need to invite all-H teams to a private cup, so your point is really non-sense. The suggestion does not create an unfair option that does not already exist.
If you had taken as much trouble reading the thread as you did studying my team's achievements, you would have seen that there are suggestions for different criteria, such as GR, and you could think of others, like how long since the team was founded (since it takes time to build up a good team), etc. You can add your own instead of focusing on me - the suggestion I am making is not for my benefit, and it would be good of you to judge the suggestion, not me.
The point is to make the option of creating a cup that anyone fulfilling certain criteria can join - i.e. a limited cup. I still fail to see what the problem is. It adds another option, which will never be perfect, but which will be fairer than the current completely open cup.

[spootytown]

Not sure what points I really made other than:
1. you (or a few others) organizing a H league only cup would most likely be unfair to most other H teams (you disagree?)
2. winnable private cups can be arranged (you disagree?)
3. even H league teams can find and win open cups (you disagree?)

But, since my points are supposedly nonsense, I will look only to your words to figure it out.

These are your words:
This would make it easier to arrange fair (or at least fairer) cups and make it more fun for lower ranking teams

You also said:
this seems to be difficult for you to understand, I am not making the suggestion because it will make my life easier

So you want it because it is easier, but you don't want it because it's easier

You said:
I don't really understand why the private cup is mentioned as the solution

Then you said:
I CAN already make an all-H cup, I just need to invite all-H teams to a private cup.

So private cups are not the solution, but they are a solution

You also said:
The point is to make the option of creating a cup that anyone fulfilling certain criteria can join - i.e. a limited cup.

That's pretty much the definition for a private cup, yes?

Of course I did focus only on the league level in my reply, but did so because the previous poster had finished his post with the question:
Why not enable us to make it open to anyone at the same league level?

You want me to judge the suggestion? Sure: This can already be done. One may make a private cup with only teams from league X, make a private cup with teams with GR of only 65 or lower, make a private cup with teams only from Zimbabwe, make a private cup for teams who have a team name starting with the letter X, whatever.

[killer1982]

Well, we have a politician here - twisting words and using quotes out of context to try to win an argument. Anyways, if you wish...

Not sure what points I really made other than:
1. you (or a few others) organizing a H league only cup would most likely be unfair to most other H teams (you disagree?)
2. winnable private cups can be arranged (you disagree?)
3. even H league teams can find and win open cups (you disagree?)

None of these statements of the obvious are arguments against making it possible to have limited cup in addition to the private cup and the open cup - that is why it is nonsense to try and use them as such.

These are your words:
This would make it easier to arrange fair (or at least fairer) cups and make it more fun for lower ranking teams

You also said:
this seems to be difficult for you to understand, I am not making the suggestion because it will make my life easier

So you want it because it is easier, but you don't want it because it's easier

Notice the little difference between making it easier (as in for everyone) and making my life easier (as in just for me)? Please read before judging, mate. Besides, why are you beating me up rather than explaining why it will not be easier to arranger a fairer cup with the suggestion I am making? seems a bit petty and beside the point.

You said:
I don't really understand why the private cup is mentioned as the solution

Then you said:
I CAN already make an all-H cup, I just need to invite all-H teams to a private cup.

So private cups are not the solution, but they are a solution

Surely you can do better than this? Juxtaposing quotes out of context? tsk, tsk... Your argument was that it would be UNFAIR to make it possible for strong H-teams (such as mine) to make an all-H team cup. My counter-argument was that this already is possible, not that it was a solution. I do not wish to make it possible to make an unfair cup - this is already possible with the private cup. I wish to make it easier for all teams to arrange a fairer cup.

You also said:
The point is to make the option of creating a cup that anyone fulfilling certain criteria can join - i.e. a limited cup.

That's pretty much the definition for a private cup, yes?

Ahhhmm, no, that is not the definition of a private cup. That is the definition of a limited cup. A private cup is...well...private, in that you invite specific teams you already know. A limited cup you invite anyone (including those you don't know) who fulfills certain criteria - i.e. that you limit it. Is it really so hard to understand the difference?

Of course I did focus only on the league level in my reply, but did so because the previous poster had finished his post with the question:
Why not enable us to make it open to anyone at the same league level?

You want me to judge the suggestion? Sure: This can already be done. One may make a private cup with only teams from league X, make a private cup with teams with GR of only 65 or lower, make a private cup with teams only from Zimbabwe, make a private cup for teams who have a team name starting with the letter X, whatever.

This is possible, but why on earth should it be something that one has to do by visiting every team to find teams with a certain GR, from a certain league, etc. Why not simply make that possible to do with one click when arranging a limited cup? This was my question and I still don't see you, or anyone else for that matter, answering it.

[Snaak]

Maybe a league-H only cup would be a bit unfair for some people, like in the example stated... if you are a very good H-team, then you will win all your cups.

Another idea could be that players could choose the range of GR's for the cup. For example, if your global rating is 70, you could choose a cup for:

65-75
60-80
50-90
or no specifications. Or the organiser of the tournament could choose the interval himself( an interval GR(organiser)-x < GR(all players) < GR(organiser)+x

In this way, the organiser of the cup will usually be an "average" team in terms of Global Rating.

[Razvanica]

I am against this proposed feature because:
1. I think the time spent coding it could be used for other really important features (and no, I don't mean talkerbee or the daily news section).
2. As it was already said on these topics, the feature already exists, it's just that right now it's the managers that have to spend some time inviting the teams corresponding to their criteria. It's just like the managers who insist on filters for the transfer-list. If you don't have the time to play the game, I don't see why you insist in proposing new features.
3. Say Sjarel would add this possibility to limit cup participants using the GR. How long do you think it would be before other managers would demand to limit cups to teams from a given country or to teams which have a player named Simpson?
4. As Frrfrr explained on another topic, top teams (A and B division) already have a hard time when they try to join a cup. I didn't agree with him on his suggestion and I believe that success has its price, but this doesn't mean that we have to transform the top divisions in a nightmare as some other guy was saying.

[spootytown]

2 points and I'm done:

1. I fail to see your distinction between a private cup and a limited cup, other than you seem to be working on the premise that one must know someone before inviting them to a private cup. Surely you have played this game long enough to get unsolicited emails from people you don't know to join their private cups? I get them all the time, and anticipate more coming soon with the league ending and people looking for matches. The private cups are just limited(!) to those invited.

2. This game isn't about making things easier. The motto isn't "Can you manage it? Because if not, we'll make it easier for you". You can set up a private cups with any criteria you choose, it just might require a little/lot effort and research. Your "limited cup" already exists, it just requires some work. It can be as fair or unfair as you'd like it to be. Are private cups already unfair? Some are, yes. But maybe by making it harder, Sjarel is trying to discourage people from taking the time to create these unfair cups which you would have with one click.

[killer1982]

2 points and I'm done:

1. I fail to see your distinction between a private cup and a limited cup, other than you seem to be working on the premise that one must know someone before inviting them to a private cup. Surely you have played this game long enough to get unsolicited emails from people you don't know to join their private cups? I get them all the time, and anticipate more coming soon with the league ending and people looking for matches. The private cups are just limited(!) to those invited.

Again I don't see why then you can not have a limited cup opened up to anyone that fit a criteria - why do you need to invite them individually? I still don't see what the problem is to enable other teams to join a cup if they fit the criteria without having to make a specific invitation to that team.

2. This game isn't about making things easier. The motto isn't "Can you manage it? Because if not, we'll make it easier for you". You can set up a private cups with any criteria you choose, it just might require a little/lot effort and research. Your "limited cup" already exists, it just requires some work.

This is just plain silly. The game is meant to be challenging, not tedious. It is meant to be a challenge to manage a team, not to spend your time clicking your way through invitation after invitation - that can hardly be called managing, that's just.....clicking.

It can be as fair or unfair as you'd like it to be. Are private cups already unfair? Some are, yes. But maybe by making it harder, Sjarel is trying to discourage people from taking the time to create these unfair cups which you would have with one click.

Although that may be part of it for Sjarel (who are we to judge), you really should try to raise yourself above making groundless accusations - I do not wish to make it easy to create unfair cups. How is it unfair if I make it possible for any team from, say, H-league to join, as opposed to handpicking them - where I could hand-pick the weakest? If I open it up to all H-teams some stronger than me could join, rather than just those that I have picked. What you are writing is both an unfair and, sorry, slightly stupid thing to write.

[spootytown]

I was done, but my mother always told me to apologize when I hurt someone.

I apologize if you took any of what I wrote personally, though I'm not sure where I groundlessly accused you of anything. The strongest thing I said was "you (or a few others) organizing a H league only cup would most likely be unfair to most other H teams", a statement you called "obvious" and hardly accusatory.

[killer1982]

well, when you grow up, just remember to go for the ball, not the man. It makes the discussion more interesting. Take a leaf out of Razvanica's book - although I disagree with him, he actually has interesting and relevant arguments against the proposal, and is not so fascinated with me and my team as you seem to be.

Regarding Razvanica's points:
1. This could be true - I don't have the technical insights to know how much efforts such a change would require.
2. It is not true that it already exists. You can only invite specific teams, you cannot make the invitation open to anyone fulfilling certain criteria - you have to invite them individually, which means you probably handpick them.
3. I don't agree with this. League and GR are relevant criteria and the names of players is not relevant. I don't think managers are that silly, and besides, if they were, it would not be worth considering, I think that is obvious.
4. This argument I heard before, and although my heart cries out for the troubles the top teams go through, I still think that it would be good to focus on the thousands of H-G_F teams and not the handfull of A-B-C teams that are already doing well.