Points Penalty

kennyanu · Post by **kennyanu** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:33 pm

i say like this: if a team does not make...30 points and it regalates, he should have a planalty x...x = his point number - 30. and he shloud start with x points(x is negative)

understand?

kjekspakke · Post by **kjekspakke** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:07 pm

kennyanu · Post by **kennyanu** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:17 pm

because...there are teams that promote...just to regalate....and so they make from 0 to 10 points...i don't think this is normal....it should be some competition....

cercel_jr · Post by **cercel_jr** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:31 pm

Yes I agrre with kennyanu and also this thing takes place in real life.
There are teams that promote and then relegate gest to win again the previous league.

Paul_G · Post by **Paul_G** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:10 am

I don't like this idea at all.

I was relegated once simply because I was in a division that was too strong for me. I know my point total was under 30. I wasn't an SPFA member then, and if I had a penalty waiting for me the following season, I would probably have just quit the game.

There are some players who exploit the promotion system, but wouldn't it be a better idea to work on the unrealistic setting that is causing those players to play in an unrealistic way?

Those players do that because they can make more money being relegated than by staying up. The solution is obvious. Offer significantly higher advertising revenue and TV money each step up the ladder. 1st place in division G should make about the same as 9th place in division F.

modes98's revenge · Post by **modes98's revenge** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:49 am

WTF!

You can't punish a team for being crap, nor can you punish them for playing the game the way they want to.

I lost the last few game of last season to make sure that i didn't win my league and get promoted. It gave my youth players experience and stopped me getting thrashed in D. Do i deserve a points deduction?

kennyanu · Post by **kennyanu** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:29 am

no one punish them for beeing crap. but, there are team who are not playing to win if they promote....thier playing just to take the promoting money over and over.....

matt · Post by **matt** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:48 am

kennyanu wrote:no one punish them for beeing crap. but, there are team who are not playing to win if they promote....thier playing just to take the promoting money over and over.....

Those teams will also suffer from the disadvantages of relegating that are already there like loss of fanbase. But indeed, the 'penalty' is still too small. I wouldn't go for a points penalty though, I'd rather follow Paul G and make the revenue difference significantly higher between the divisions.
I think that it's quite worth working out this proposal.

sljivovica · Post by **sljivovica** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:56 pm

Penalty in points is no good idea at all.
The "problem" should be solved in a different matter.
I like the idea of giving Extra Fans to higher divisions.

As in real life, any team that relegates will loose a lot in terms of attendance...
Now it feels like the fanbase only grows a little when promoting, and hardly shrinks when relegating.
Maybe we should include a more direct link to the Division to make playing in a higher division more worthwile?

Like,

A +6000 fans
B +4000 fans
C +2500 fans
D +1500 fans (etc....)
E +800 fans (400 E or Higher Fans + 200 F Fans + 200 G Fans)
F +400 fans (200 F or Higher Fans + 200 G or Higher fans))
G +200 fans (200 G or Higher-fans)
H +0 fans

So, if you play in C, and you have 20.000 fans, and you promote, you will get 20.000 + unrelated bonus + Division-related bonus
(= 20.000 + 500 + 1500)
And if you relegate back to C again, you will loose maybe 100 fans in the current system, but also the 1500 B-only-fans

What I'm saying, is that this should be on top of the already existing system

This way, it pays off financially to stay in a high-as-possible division all the time, it makes it more profitable then relegating and then becoming the champion again time after time.
And also, it makes the size of your stadium a little more important.

TSY · Post by **TSY** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:46 am

no way...this idea suck.

tuways · Post by **tuways** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 1:23 am

If you really want to "punish" a team which isn't defending it's chances in a correct way when promoting, and only loses games to relegate and promote all over again, I see a very simple solution: Let's say a team promotes from F to E. Flag this team with 1 "F_promotion". If this team then relegates from E back to F and then wins the F division again, they will have this F_promotion flag and will not get the full promotion prize, but only 50%. And a second "F_promotion" flag. And so on. Soon, staying in lower divisions won't make sense, and each team will struggle to stay up.

I find that point-penalty is crap.

Paul_G · Post by **Paul_G** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 4:26 am

sljivovica wrote:I like the idea of giving Extra Fans to higher divisions.

So do I... that's a good idea. If it was up to me, I'd even double the numbers that you listed, or do a combination of the numbers you came up with and an increase in advertising/TV revenue. Something like that would give us a fairly realistic financial structure, and people might be suprised at how many problems that will fix.

With your idea, Tuways... the problem is that it isn't what would happen IRL. Like, if a team promotes IRL there isn't a diminishing return like that. I'd also guess that situations where teams bounce up and down without wanting to must happen quite a lot between B and C, C and D divisions, because those teams are all so close together in talent level. It wouldn't be good to penalize people who are giving it an effort, but getting relegated anyway.

tuways · Post by **tuways** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 4:57 pm

Paul_G wrote:
sljivovica wrote:I like the idea of giving Extra Fans to higher divisions.
With your idea, Tuways... the problem is that it isn't what would happen IRL. Like, if a team promotes IRL there isn't a diminishing return like that. I'd also guess that situations where teams bounce up and down without wanting to must happen quite a lot between B and C, C and D divisions, because those teams are all so close together in talent level. It wouldn't be good to penalize people who are giving it an effort, but getting relegated anyway.

Well, IRL there aren't teams who try to promote just to get relegated again...

So the "problem" (if it's a problem) is strictly related to SP. So, if it is considered a problem, you have to get a "SP-solution", because you can't compare it to the reality.

One solution for the problem you brought up: If you say that teams bounce up and down between B and C, due to close value (e.g.) you can set a "border" for the "flagging". So if a team reaches C league, there is no "flagging" anymore (no C_promotion or B_promotion flag and so on...).

Another one (in my opinion, better): Every team that promotes and relegates next season is flagged when returning to the inferior league. If the team doesn't relegate (so if it fights to stay up) the flag is never set, even if the team relegates in the 2nd season in the upper division. Something like this:

Case 1:
Season x: FC Team 1 promotes from G to F. Gets 100% prize money.
Season x+1: Relegates from F to G. Gets flagged -> "G_promotion_x".
Season x+2: Promotes from G to F. Gets 50% (or 75% or whatever) prize money.
Case 2:
Season x: FC Team 2 promotes from G to F. Gets 100% prize money.
Season x+1: Manages to stay in F. Potential flag deleted.
Season x+2: Relegates from F to G. Nothing happens.
season x+3: Promotes from G to F. Gets 100% prize money.

Of course this can be modified and adapted in a hundred ways. Personally, I find the whole thing is not an issue. Everyone can play as he likes.

Nasko · Post by **Nasko** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:32 pm

sljivovica wrote:Penalty in points is no good idea at all.
The "problem" should be solved in a different matter.
I like the idea of giving Extra Fans to higher divisions.

As in real life, any team that relegates will loose a lot in terms of attendance...
Now it feels like the fanbase only grows a little when promoting, and hardly shrinks when relegating.
Maybe we should include a more direct link to the Division to make playing in a higher division more worthwile?

Like,

A +6000 fans
B +4000 fans
C +2500 fans
D +1500 fans (etc....)
E +800 fans (400 E or Higher Fans + 200 F Fans + 200 G Fans)
F +400 fans (200 F or Higher Fans + 200 G or Higher fans))
G +200 fans (200 G or Higher-fans)
H +0 fans

So, if you play in C, and you have 20.000 fans, and you promote, you will get 20.000 + unrelated bonus + Division-related bonus
(= 20.000 + 500 + 1500)
And if you relegate back to C again, you will loose maybe 100 fans in the current system, but also the 1500 B-only-fans

What I'm saying, is that this should be on top of the already existing system

This way, it pays off financially to stay in a high-as-possible division all the time, it makes it more profitable then relegating and then becoming the champion again time after time.
And also, it makes the size of your stadium a little more important.

I like that idea.. But lower divisions should receive higher bonus .. It would be realy cordial for beginers to keep playing

Michal Kejchal · Post by **Michal Kejchal** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:11 pm

Nasko wrote:
sljivovica wrote:Penalty in points is no good idea at all.
The "problem" should be solved in a different matter.
I like the idea of giving Extra Fans to higher divisions.

As in real life, any team that relegates will loose a lot in terms of attendance...
Now it feels like the fanbase only grows a little when promoting, and hardly shrinks when relegating.
Maybe we should include a more direct link to the Division to make playing in a higher division more worthwile?

Like,

A +6000 fans
B +4000 fans
C +2500 fans
D +1500 fans (etc....)
E +800 fans (400 E or Higher Fans + 200 F Fans + 200 G Fans)
F +400 fans (200 F or Higher Fans + 200 G or Higher fans))
G +200 fans (200 G or Higher-fans)
H +0 fans

So, if you play in C, and you have 20.000 fans, and you promote, you will get 20.000 + unrelated bonus + Division-related bonus
(= 20.000 + 500 + 1500)
And if you relegate back to C again, you will loose maybe 100 fans in the current system, but also the 1500 B-only-fans

What I'm saying, is that this should be on top of the already existing system

This way, it pays off financially to stay in a high-as-possible division all the time, it makes it more profitable then relegating and then becoming the champion again time after time.
And also, it makes the size of your stadium a little more important.
I like that idea.. But lower divisions should receive higher bonus .. It would be realy cordial for beginers to keep playing

Agree. Another correction should be if every team lose 1-2% of its fans at the end of each season - because everybody dies one day (including your fans

).