Less cheating proposal 1

Frrfrr · Post by **Frrfrr** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:46 pm

I have realized a lot of cheating with fast transfers resulting in sales of players for different value then "normal"
I believe different prices are ok if the players agree on them and they are independent parties - not friends.

More friends supporting one player result generally is same cheat like you alone having more farms. In the strangest cases players from one nation could help one player, who could easy get in top leagues with such a support, which is currently not recognized as cheating.

To decrease possibilities of cheating I propose to prohibit fast transfers between the players from the same country.

I heart there is some possibility to check IP (I don’t know what is it, but was explained:) and realize the nationality of every player. If the player from same country would try to make fast transfer they would get message: you can’t fast transfer with same country player, the transfer was cancelled, and player is still on market.

Pros: friends will be unable to sell the players for lower prices between each other, unless they from different country. This should result in huge decrease of cheats.
Cheating with many friends from other countries is not easy, so there will be less work for sheriffs, who could better concentrate on those issues

Contras: the biggest community - Czechs will be unable to fast trade each other, what still enables them to buy over 70% players with fast transfer.
Belgians will be able to fast trade still +84% of players.
Other countries +90%
Remember, you still may make trades with player in your country, only not so fast.

I believe pros outnumber contras enormously. This could lead to much more honor and "healthy" game environment.

cercel_jr · Post by **cercel_jr** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:59 pm

This is a very good ideea because there are lots of managers that do this kind of transfers. I also did this, but when I had the biggest offer for a player and I could give more money for that player, the owner sold that player to a manager from his country for a non-normal price, I wanted to buy that player and I was willing to pay very much for him. After the fast transfer was made I was not happy at all.

But for this you should find a way to discover the real country of the manager, and not the one selected by him in the game.

robborover · Post by **robborover** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:07 pm

how is agreeing a deal cheating?

PipkiN · Post by **PipkiN** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:39 pm

That is a really bad one, why should I suffer the most ? Because I am Czech ? No way, man ! This game is basically same for all the people, you cannot put some group higher than other group, just only you want to fight cheating .. This will not help at all, 'cause the farm teams can wear different types of flags/countries ..

Post by **Sjarel** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:49 pm

This is a problem, but other than removing the opportunity for a manager to decide himself when to sell, I really see no good solution; Any ideas are welcome ...

Michal Kejchal · Post by **Michal Kejchal** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:47 pm

Maybe a kind of searching formula? I dont know if its too complicated for system, but I will try to write somethink. Its only a first shout

I dont know if system can count with paticular skills. Here is one which doesnt solve untrained players (also need to be modified for SW):
F=(32-age) + 1) * (sqr(overall rating - 70)+1) * 1000
- if age > 32 then age=32
- if overall < 70 then overall=70

If F > selling price. Then transfer is marked as a suspicious.
Examples:
20 years, 85 rating - F=13*226*1000=2 938 000
20 years, 80 rating - F=13*101*1000=1 313 000
20 years, 75 rating - F=13*26*1000=338 000

25 years, 90 rating - F=8*401*1000=3 208 000
25 years, 85 rating - F=8*226*1000=1 808 000
25 years, 80 rating - F=8*101*1000=808 000
25 years, 75 rating - F=8*26*1000=208 000

30 years, 90 rating - F=3*401*1000=1 203 000
30 years, 85 rating - F=3*226*1000=678 000
30 years, 80 rating - F=3*101*1000=303 000
30 years, 75 rating - F=3*26*1000=78 000

"Untrained formula" should involve decreasement of "70" constant for each skill not on maximum:
∑(75 - current untr. skill value)/15 or /7,5 for main skills
- if skill > 75 then skill=75
Example:
Player with two untrained skills (not on maximum) 0 and 15 have this formula:
(75-0)/15=5 and (75-15)/15=4 then 70-5-4=61 so formula in this case is:
F=(32-age) + 1) * (sqr(overall rating - 61)+1) * 1000

tuways · Post by **tuways** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:57 pm

So you are creating a minimum price for the players. If the selling price is smaller then this "minimum price", F , then the transfer is suspicious.
But the formula isn't quite accurate. You see, selling a "25 years, 90 rating - F=8*401*1000=3 208 000"-player with 3.5M would surely be suspicious, but your formula wouldn't catch it up. This is an extreme example, and I'm sure someone will notice, but I hope you see my point...

Still, I like what you're thinking, mate!

bunicutzu · Post by **bunicutzu** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:57 pm

I don't think that these kinf of formulas are of any help. because there are some fluctuations in the market, the price depends almost entirely on the number of players offered by the market and the number of buyers. and on some skills more than other. like aggression, or like the 2 bold skills.
In my opinion a way to fight this kind of cheats is to change the period of selling. And I mean in this way: instead of 2 days period in which the player cannot be sold and 4 days in which the player can be sold, we can put 4 days and 2 days.
In this way the player can be seen by more players interested in him and the price can be much closer to the "real" price. and I think in most of the cases will reach a price that a cheat will not worth the risk.

Example:
NOW team X puts a 25y CB at 85% with a transfer price of 50k. during the first two days the player cannot be fast sold. the price reaches 1M after those 2days. After the expiration of this period team Y (manager x') makes an offer of 1.05 M and team X sell it instantly. CHEAT

Change team X puts the 25y CB at 85% with a transfer price of 50k. But player cannot be sold for 4 days. The offer reaches a price almost real. Then it remains 2 days for the fast buy.

Michal Kejchal · Post by **Michal Kejchal** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:39 pm

tuways wrote:So you are creating a minimum price for the players. If the selling price is smaller then this "minimum price", F , then the transfer is suspicious.
But the formula isn't quite accurate. You see, selling a "25 years, 90 rating - F=8*401*1000=3 208 000"-player with 3.5M would surely be suspicious, but your formula wouldn't catch it up. This is an extreme example, and I'm sure someone will notice, but I hope you see my point...

Still, I like what you're thinking, mate!

Formula can be more exponencial like:
F=(32-age) + 1) * (sqr(overall rating - 70)+1) * sqr(overall rating) / 5

Michal Kejchal · Post by **Michal Kejchal** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:46 pm

bunicutzu wrote:I don't think that these kinf of formulas are of any help. because there are some fluctuations in the market, the price depends almost entirely on the number of players offered by the market and the number of buyers. and on some skills more than other. like aggression, or like the 2 bold skills.
In my opinion a way to fight this kind of cheats is to change the period of selling. And I mean in this way: instead of 2 days period in which the player cannot be sold and 4 days in which the player can be sold, we can put 4 days and 2 days.
In this way the player can be seen by more players interested in him and the price can be much closer to the "real" price. and I think in most of the cases will reach a price that a cheat will not worth the risk.

Example:
NOW team X puts a 25y CB at 85% with a transfer price of 50k. during the first two days the player cannot be fast sold. the price reaches 1M after those 2days. After the expiration of this period team Y (manager x') makes an offer of 1.05 M and team X sell it instantly. CHEAT

Change team X puts the 25y CB at 85% with a transfer price of 50k. But player cannot be sold for 4 days. The offer reaches a price almost real. Then it remains 2 days for the fast buy.

Fluctuations during market period arent so dramatic I think. Its allways about to chose to have:
a) formula which succesfully recognize cheting but also offen classify normal transfer as a suspicious
b) formula which sometimes doesnt recognize cheating but almost never classify normal transfer as a suspicious

btw. Example you mentioned would be recognize as a cheating by formula you criticise

Frrfrr · Post by **Frrfrr** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:41 am

Pipkin>

system will be then not dependant on the flags you wear in team, but on IP, which is country based, so whatever flag you put it does not matter in this sense. System would check your IP. With this it is hard to cheat, while if you want in reality cheat, you really need each time to log in Afganistan to be recognised as team from Afganistan

- if you from Europe hard to make

and

again you still able to make trades as normal, only issue is, that you are unable to make them fast. And with fast you have over 70% with whom you may do. I bet, if you not cheater, You hardly realise this in reality

as a trade off from this constrain you get much less cheating

additionally, the more this game is international, the less you affected with this rule

PipkiN · Post by **PipkiN** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:13 pm

I know what you are talking about, but you cannot just disallow one group of people from fast transfers even in the case of good meaning of the thing.. There will be last transfers, and who will profit ? Managers from countries having the least managers playing. Why should they be preffered on the transfermarket ? It makes no sense.

You idea is realizable even there are the same amounts of managers in every country, which is unrealistic. If you idea would be realized, the SP will become unfair for example for me as Czech inhabitant. You talk about raising numbers of international managers and about that the game becomes more international. But work with the facts: most managers come from Czech republic, the most rising number is from the same country. So this opposites your idea of SP becoming international; yes, there will be some new managers from small countries, but there won't be as many of them as new from Czech republic will come. And by this and by realizing your idea, the game will come more and more boring, because if I would like to have an adequate player for quick transfer, I will have to search him for a couple of hours on the transfermarket or I won't find someone at all.. Why ? Because (let's say) half of the managers are from my country and I cannot buy anyone for a quick trade.

I think that this feature is unrealizable, nice try, but you have to find the way to battle the cheaters elsewhere.

P.S. Did you think of disallowing quick transfers at all ? To make transfer period "in red" for most of the time and then show players "in green" for a day let's say ? That will be very bad, degradating this game.. Also, by the opportunity of having quick transfers the richest managers are not allowed to buy everyone they will to; that goes for you too, FrrFrr, because you should be one of the richest. Quick transfer - I can sell it to whom I want. Normal transfer - richest won. I think that today's system is fine.

Frrfrr · Post by **Frrfrr** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:46 am

Pipkin>

firstly i dont want to quarrel with you. seems we got too diferent opinions

, but

honestly, currently i would prefer disallow fast transfers fully to decrease level of hidden cheating.
and why? the more i reach higher leagues i see people from those leagues making those hidden cheats, which allow them to stay in C, D (i dont watch A and B yet:) leagues. i just found proven transfers even between top players from your country. i believe this is cheating, but currently it is not this way classified (sale to a friend/yourself with other IP for lower price through fast transfer). you need only a bit review some "good" managers history and you would be surprised how many are cheating this way, how large is this issue

the way of this hidden cheating you get enormous money, same time the best players, what is enormous advantage vs other players.

what would you choose being regular not cheating player?
1. not to make fast transfer within 1 country or
2. accept many other players - cheaters may have +30-50 mils more income a season then you, while they cheat. and you know you have no chance to beat them unless you cheat as well ....
I believe easy choice

now i have 3 choices -
1. join cheating group and start to cheat to go up
2. do something what eliminates cheating
3. quit game disgused with cheaters, knowing without cheat i cant go up and i am not cheater so good bye

the more the game developes, much faster cheaters will pop up, i am sure. not doing anything means cheating becomes standard practice for players in top leagues

you wrote "I think that this feature is unrealizable, nice try, but you have to find the way to battle the cheaters elsewhere"
my proposal is the one which could solve a lot and it still does not prohibits majority of fast transfers, if you got better idea, you more then wellcome

and realizability? very easy - just need to implement

ok, i believe i expressed clearly enuf. this is maybe my last post to it, i have other things to do (check the transfer list and maybe start some cheating farm

enjoy!

PipkiN · Post by **PipkiN** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:09 am

After all this, your oppinion may be thousand times good, but there cannot be this. If you see suspicious trade in the high division, just send a message to sherrifs.
You cannot tell someone "you can buy 62% of players by quick trade" while you tell someone else "you can buy 98% of players by quick trade". This will make the game unfair to regular players wanting to make a deal, they will soon become disappointed with this and will soon quit.
Yes, there are cheaters, and you can trust me I fight against them as you are, but simply you cannot let Sjarel to implement this, because there are many more regular, fair managers than cheaters, and these will be influenced the most, but why ? They did not nothing wrong, so why they should be influenced ?

You must let the managers to have an opportunity of quick trades, even it is used sometimes for cheating, but this cheating can be found, when you search for it. You cannot say to UK manager "now you cannot buy from any other manager from UK for a quick trade even if you wish to and even if you really need the exact player" .. If you are old enough, this period of prohibiting fell on 17th November 1989..

Frrfrr · Post by **Frrfrr** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:56 am

1. those suspicious trades - which you report and even when you get proved are currently even not recognised as cheating. sheriffs do not punish it!
2. proving such a cheating to a player is extremly hard - if even not possible and could lead to lot of inconsistencies, rumours, frustrations from bans etc.
3. prevention and set up of clear rules is best medicine - then you need even less busy sheriffs having more fun with beer instead of endless arguing with people

lol, Sjarel will implement what he wants I am not his boss

we are all in his hands

i believe regular players will understand. this is in their favour.

yes some players, who make such a transfers - within country will suffer a lot. but, honestly, do we want some players to gain such advantages vs other players?

you mentione 17 Nov - yes, but now we have anarchy without any rules? do you pay taxes? skipping this would make you more happy but you still pay

still some rules in some cases even tougher. the more transparent and understandable you make them the better