Cheating

[Frrfrr]

Most good teams from higher divisons are great thanks to direct transfers, the exact same system that makes cheating easy. So changing this (which is necessary in my opinion) will make a lot of the best managers very angry
I don't know if this is part of the reason nothing gets changed.

sljivovica> i think you are very right in this. the game started with the friends around creator and i think they influence him most. till the time they on top nothing will change i think, while they like it as it is

but belgiums are starting to be less and less in A division. from next seasons even westel may relegate, so maybe this will become a signal this game might change

[Isis]

Sljivovica,

The idea of this posted topic is to fight cheating, given that negotiations are an essential part of SP. Read my initial posting, second paragraph. Forbidding direct transfers would kill this game.

But maybe this is the only correct and feasable solution to this problem .... I was very much against putting a stop on direct transfers, because it's a way that suits me. I know a lot of managers, they know me. Sometimes that's an advantage (Once someone sold me a very good player for 6M because I knew Foxir ) But since the last discussion we had (on the Dutch forum I guess) I tried to buy my players in an 'ordinary' way. Nothing was killed. This worked too. (I must admit though that I have made one deal since then and it was a good one and that gives perhaps more satisfaction than 10 bought in an 'ordinary' way )

But I'm very much against making rules on lying. The job is hard enough on the sheriffs as it is and I really don't want a witch hunt. So: no lists with cheating lying thieving managers.

[Isis]

Most good teams from higher divisons are great thanks to direct transfers, the exact same system that makes cheating easy. So changing this (which is necessary in my opinion) will make a lot of the best managers very angry
I don't know if this is part of the reason nothing gets changed.

sljivovica> i think you are very right in this. the game started with the friends around creator and i think they influence him most. till the time they on top nothing will change i think, while they like it as it is

but belgiums are starting to be less and less in A division. from next seasons even westel may relegate, so maybe this will become a signal this game might change

OMG
Do you really think A is riddled with personal friends of Sjarel? Do you really think he made this game for his friends to be successful? Know what: he only invited 13k czechs because they were easy to cheat on

[Frrfrr]

Isis>

you missed my words ... where did i stated A is riddled with personal friends of Sjarel? or he made SP for his friends? or because they were easy to cheat on?

yes, i believe he started to develope and play it with his personal friends and I believe he developed SP idea with them ...
additionally, he was mainly influenced by them as well ...
this is the way how I would do the game too - with friends ...

i am not sure about current A, but i think in A there were some of his personal friends in previous seasons ... i would wonder if not ...
and I believe there is nothing wrong with it ... it is natural ...

if i am wrong in thinking when the change may come ... lol does it matter? i heart you lady, why you get so nervous?
honestly, i did not get the point why you countered me

[Isis]

Isis>

you missed my words ... where did i stated A is riddled with personal friends of Sjarel? or he made SP for his friends? or because they were easy to cheat on?

yes, i believe he started to develope and play it with his personal friends and I believe he developed SP idea with them ...
additionally, he was mainly influenced by them as well ...
this is the way how I would do the game too - with friends ...

i am not sure about current A, but i think in A there were some of his personal friends in previous seasons ... i would wonder if not ...
and I believe there is nothing wrong with it ... it is natural ...

if i am wrong in thinking when the change may come ... lol does it matter? i heart you lady, why you get so nervous?
honestly, i did not get the point why you countered me

Because I know that Sjarel does not work like that. It even works the other way around. When I won the cup for the first time, it was partly due to the fact that I gave my players a new contract several times that week. Afterwards he changed this rule: you cannot do that anymore. You will have to wait at least 2 sesons before you get any morale boost out of it now. He is not thinking about his 'friends' at all when he implements changes. Not even about himself. He is doing what he thinks is best for the game in the long run. Not because he is a Saint or so. Just because SoccerProject is a lot more than a game for some of his friends .... (Btw, I'm sorry to have reacted so strongly, but I found it quite insulting what you insinuated last night.)

[zandyy]

Guys,

Can we drop the conspiracy theories and focus on the issue in hand please?

What I gather from the comments so far is that managers would generally want there to be a tool to at least reduce the number of cheating incidents in SP. The problem is, most managers did not like the Ebay-style solution for various reasons, and as for increased policing – people didn’t find it feasible. Most managers then concluded that there is nothing that can be done because it is just too complicated to solve.

I want to defend Frrfrr here Isis – he did not mean there’s a clique of mates that run this game to their own advantage I think. What he meant is that when it was a game of a few friends, no rules about cheating were necessary because people knew each other. Things have changed since, and that is something the game designers need to realise in order to keep the game fun, fair and manageable.

I’d like to propose a compromise solution which would be a start. Let us re-write the current paragraph in the rules, and add something like “managers will act in their best faith not to lie in any SP publication, including SP messages”. Also, add racial abuse (along with pornographic material) to things that are forbidden.

Now how to police it – well, not much really needs to change. I know for a fact that there are quite a few managers whose logos can qualify as pornographic material but nobody does anything about it (and it doesn’t bother me at all). But if a manager makes allegations to sheriffs about another manager, which did not act in his best faith, instead of the sheriff starting a discussion with the complaining manager, which will take quite a bit of his time, he will write a short message to the presumably offensive manager and say something like “a complaint was filed against you; I will not go into the details of this case, but I would like to refer you to our rules”. It is of course far from ideal, but I think it will make a real difference, as most of those cheaters I am talking about are kids, and an authoritative figure telling them off mildly can do marvels. This will definitely not require the sheriffs more time than they spend now. A discussion can thereafter start in search for a long-term solution, with the site managers bearing in mind that times, unfortunately, have changed.

Comments?

[Isis]

Guys,

Can we drop the conspiracy theories and focus on the issue in hand please?

What I gather from the comments so far is that managers would generally want there to be a tool to at least reduce the number of cheating incidents in SP. The problem is, most managers did not like the Ebay-style solution for various reasons, and as for increased policing – people didn’t find it feasible. Most managers then concluded that there is nothing that can be done because it is just too complicated to solve.

I want to defend Frrfrr here Isis – he did not mean there’s a clique of mates that run this game to their own advantage I think. What he meant is that when it was a game of a few friends, no rules about cheating were necessary because people knew each other. Things have changed since, and that is something the game designers need to realise in order to keep the game fun, fair and manageable.

I’d like to propose a compromise solution which would be a start. Let us re-write the current paragraph in the rules, and add something like “managers will act in their best faith not to lie in any SP publication, including SP messages”. Also, add racial abuse (along with pornographic material) to things that are forbidden.

Now how to police it – well, not much really needs to change. I know for a fact that there are quite a few managers whose logos can qualify as pornographic material but nobody does anything about it (and it doesn’t bother me at all). But if a manager makes allegations to sheriffs about another manager, which did not act in his best faith, instead of the sheriff starting a discussion with the complaining manager, which will take quite a bit of his time, he will write a short message to the presumably offensive manager and say something like “a complaint was filed against you; I will not go into the details of this case, but I would like to refer you to our rules”. It is of course far from ideal, but I think it will make a real difference, as most of those cheaters I am talking about are kids, and an authoritative figure telling them off mildly can do marvels. This will definitely not require the sheriffs more time than they spend now. A discussion can thereafter start in search for a long-term solution, with the site managers bearing in mind that times, unfortunately, have changed.

Comments?

I understand now, but I like to say that it didn't start out as a game of friends I also understand your point: since the game is growing, it is necessary to take more precautions against cheating. We can all be part of that: pay attention to what we see and report suspect managers as cheaters. But I don't understand why you need strict rules against lying for example. When I try to make a deal, I know that I might profit from it, but I also know that there are risks involved.

[Frrfrr]

Isis>

exactly as you stated. as he sees the consequences, he reacted. you signed new agreements, he saw this would lead nowhere, while all would do it and result is just all doing same thing - increasing salaries so, he changed

now he is not cheating and some other in A and other leagues were / are cheaters - of course only in some way - what i think is cheat, however is not punished now.
so if he looses the matches vs such players - maybe even relegates, he will think more about, whether they deserve it to win this way. maybe he find out this has to be changed, even when so many people like current way of trading as it is

honestly, it is very good he plays SP, while he may understand much more the issues of other players, so better to react and update

[Isis]

Isis>

exactly as you stated. as he sees the consequences, he reacted. you signed new agreements, he saw this would lead nowhere, while all would do it and result is just all doing same thing - increasing salaries so, he changed

now he is not cheating and some other in A and other leagues were / are cheaters - of course only in some way - what i think is cheat, however is not punished now.
so if he looses the matches vs such players, he will think more about, whether they deserve it to win this way. maybe he find out this has to be changed, even when so many people like current way of trading as it is

I would like to know what you consider 'cheating' now then ....

[zandyy]

We can all be part of that: pay attention to what we see and report suspect managers as cheaters.

What use is there to report, for example, racial abuse - as you so nicely enlightened us all about in your last newsletter, if it is not in the rules?

But I don't understand why you need strict rules against lying for example. When I try to make a deal, I know that I might profit from it, but I also know that there are risks involved.

There are many risks in a deal - that the player would turn out useless, that negotiations would fail, and so on. Once you put time and effort into reaching a definitive deal, the risk of a manager going back on his word and then sending you the following message “whine whine whine.. do you think i read all your long stories= hahaha ,, whine on” (- quote from dear manager Benthemen after cheating me), should not be as great a risk as it is now. This risk must be reduced, or else the fun of the game is gone. Right now in the forum, we are having a good debate with everyone’s best intentions of making the game better – managers like the one above are not of the same breed I’m afraid. And there are more and more of those around, and they are making good money out of cheating, and soon you will see them in higher leagues.

We don’t need strict rules Isis, we need any rules. The current ones are insufficient anymore due to the growth of the game. We don’t need strict policing, we need some policing. We need to set the priorities right. Isis, do you believe that the order of words in transfer forum titles are more important than not lying in the content of the postings? That posting pornography is more deplorable that racially abusing another manager? If you do, I guess we don’t have much to talk about on this.

[Isis]

We can all be part of that: pay attention to what we see and report suspect managers as cheaters.

What use is there to report, for example, racial abuse - as you so nicely enlightened us all about in your last newsletter, if it is not in the rules?

But I don't understand why you need strict rules against lying for example. When I try to make a deal, I know that I might profit from it, but I also know that there are risks involved.

There are many risks in a deal - that the player would turn out useless, that negotiations would fail, and so on. Once you put time and effort into reaching a definitive deal, the risk of a manager going back on his word and then sending you the following message “whine whine whine.. do you think i read all your long stories= hahaha ,, whine on” (- quote from dear manager Benthemen after cheating me), should not be as great a risk as it is now. This risk must be reduced, or else the fun of the game is gone. Right now in the forum, we are having a good debate with everyone’s best intentions of making the game better – managers like the one above are not of the same breed I’m afraid. And there are more and more of those around, and they are making good money out of cheating, and soon you will see them in higher leagues.

We don’t need strict rules Isis, we need any rules. The current ones are insufficient anymore due to the growth of the game. We don’t need strict policing, we need some policing. We need to set the priorities right. Isis, do you believe that the order of words in transfer forum titles are more important than not lying in the content of the postings? That posting pornography is more deplorable that racially abusing another manager? If you do, I guess we don’t have much to talk about on this.

Did I tell you that I didn't want things to change? If it is necessary, then Sjarel will have to do something about it. When will it be necessary? That's up to him and the sheriffs to decide.

And I would really appreciate it if you would not mention any names of other managers involved. It's not allowed to discuss specific bans on the forum.....

About racism: Out of respect for everyone it is strictly forbidden to express any kind of political opinion as well on the site as on the forums. If you want to talk politics, do it somewhere else. We also do not tolerate pornographic or any kind of offensive material, neither will links to it be accepted.

This is what I found in the rules. I think it is not necessary or even possible to sum up all kinds of 'offensive' behaviour. But I think if noticed by the sheriffs, it is always punished (Please report such cases)

About you being cheated on in a deal. I can imagine that it infuriated you and that you felt insulted. But what damage was done? What more than personal damage was done by this manager not accepting the deal than you would have made an ordinary offer on a player and someone else overbid you? I don't understand ....

[zandyy]

Isis,

Hey, hey – let’s not get carried away here, ok? We are trying to find a solution to a problem – that’s what this forum is for. Managers face problems, think of ideas to solve them and express them here, and then the game’s administrators may implement the ideas at their discretion. One of the good things about SP is that it is original, attentive and ever-changing. I’ve been around for a year now, and every single season adaptations to the game were made.

This is not about me being pissed off about a single dishonest manager. I’ve had 4 such cases in my year here, and I’m sure every manager faced these cases. This is about trying to make this game better. Let’s bring this discussion back into productive lines please, ok?

Now, the example you just brought up is exactly what I am talking about. You told me off for discussing specific managers by name in the forum. I did not know that this is not allowed, and I apologise for that. I trust I will not face further penalties for breaking this rules (or at least I hope I won’t!). That’s exactly what I am talking about – I think the current rules need to be updated to reflect recent changes. I suspect (although I am not certain!) that the rule against pornographic content was not part of the original rules – there was a case, a complaint, which brought an update to the rules. In the same way, there is a growing number of dishonest managers – then let us write in the rules that it is not allowed to lie in SP forum, messages and press releases. If someone breaks those rules, at least it would be considered a wrong thing to do. It would not be strictly policed, as resources are scarce, and it may not be a ban-able offence, just like a logo of a naked woman or mentioning other managers in the forum by name isn’t, but it would be a start.

[Isis]

I don't have time to react on this thouroughly. But what I'm trying to do is not being negative. I'm sorry if it looks like that ....
I just don't agree with some of the things you say.

[sljivovica]

Once you put time and effort into reaching a definitive deal, the risk of a manager going back on his word and then sending you the following message “whine whine whine.. do you think i read all your long stories= hahaha ,, whine on”, should not be as great a risk as it is now.

You're right on this.
Isis, if you try to make a deal and the other manager says "no", that's cool.
But in cases like above you get abused for getting the other managers higher offers. It's officially not cheating because there are no rules about the direct accept-system, so most guys who do this never get reported to the sheriffs.
Even if they are, probably no action is taken (since it's not cheating)
This is bad and needs to be improved.

there are more and more of those around, and they are making good money out of cheating, and soon you will see them in higher leagues.

Really, I don't think so. Most of the managers from higher divisions play the game fair, and they understand that that is neccessary to compete on top level.
Yes, they make a lot of money from deals, but that is with approval of both managers, unlike the example you gave above.

[Frrfrr]

Sljivovica>

you would wonder, that even A division teams are "cheating" on trades with friends ...
and some of them even get top players for cheap accepts in fast transfer from "friends", what I really believe is kind of farming ... what is not classified as cheating now ...

publishing of those cases is prohibited on forum. if you contact sheriffs you get answer it is not cheating

those things are sometimes hard to discover but be sure this even A is infected by this issue ...