Cheating

[dragosh***]

My idea is that direct transfers are good and they don't mean cheating.
==>direct transfer is not allways selling a player cheaper, but making a deal with the other manager about the right price. ; ) If the price is low then you are a good dealer.
==> direct transfers are very important if you wanna buy a player imediatly(if all your players from a position get injured) , you really need a direct transfer.
==> direct transfers that you succeed might make some other managers envious that they couldn't take a similar player at that price.(they are not so good managers/ don't spend so much time shearching players).

Cheating is selling a player to a higher price, not selling the player cheaper. Because in the 2 days that the player is on transfer list, every manager can make a bid and try to get that player to his team.
So:
direct transfer==> not cheating
exaggerated offer for a player(too much money)==> cheating

My oppinion
Dragosh***

[Frrfrr]

dragosh:

i think you missed whole concept of the problem
try read this from newsletter ...
http://newslettersoccerproject.wordpres ... vs-corner/
article: Domination: SP - maybe this might help you if you could not find the point in current topic

cercel_jr:

Read my 7 Sept posting, I answered all your concerns there.

This transfers negociation problem is a small issue in SP. It is very good seen by most of the managers and very few who don't like it, I mean very very few.

i was unable to find your team based on your nick, but if you are in higher divisions, you would understand this issue is not about low divisions, but higher one ... so yes for majority is ok while they majority is in H and G divis, but if they go up divisions, this starts to be the issue ...
in my understanding very very few is less then 5%. but look how many managers from higher divis speak here about it ... additionally, look this topic voting ... I would say the people who want to leave the status as it is are certainly not in majority

[dragosh***]

ok, frrfrr. I read that now.
this is what i didn't understand:
"That’s why I would very much like to be the first."
The first for what?
"Those interested in the Domination-clan can contact me through mother-sliv@soccerproject.com"
you wanna create a clan or what?

[Zé da Silva]

this is what i didn't understand:
"That’s why I would very much like to be the first."
The first for what?

The first person who creates this kind of clan.

"Those interested in the Domination-clan can contact me through mother-sliv@soccerproject.com"
you wanna create a clan or what?

No, Sliv is a very honest user and he was just being sarcastic. He would never cheat by creating such a clan.

[mosmartin]

I also think Frrfrr meant that this measures will prevent the thing Sliv posted on the blog.
From my point of view it won't be long before such a thing might happen and under the curent rules you can't ban someone for that.

On the other part, more measures will spoil the beauty of this game.

I think it would be really hard to find a viable solution to this problem.

[cercel_jr]

i was unable to find your team based on your nick, but if you are in higher divisions, you would understand this issue is not about low divisions, but higher one ... so yes for majority is ok while they majority is in H and G divis, but if they go up divisions, this starts to be the issue ...
in my understanding very very few is less then 5%. but look how many managers from higher divis speak here about it ... additionally, look this topic voting ... I would say the people who want to leave the status as it is are certainly not in majority

My manager name is cyp.

I'm sorry, but if I look in this topic, there's you and zandy who don't agree the curent system.
The rest are talking about how the system can be improved, and the opinion that matters most, sjarel's is not very optimistic for the idea.
Also the voting is not very good because enyone can vote, newbies to, and we don't know who voted. And there are few votes comparing to the total SP managers.

And also, I want you to know that I'm not against it, but I also don't suport it, because it will probably bring new bugs, as it is a new complex feature, there are new rules needed and will take some time for managers to understand it and get used with it.
The purpose of the game is to be easy, so that any newbie can use it, but with this feature will make SP a litle hard to understand. This is not good because transfers are one of the things that make a manager stay with his team or it may be good because it will atract new managers with it's complexity and, maybe , fairness.
It's a big risk.
But still, if there is a way to do this, every manager has to know about it before it can be implemented because it is a major change. Maybe a in-game message with a voting or something like this.
There will be a big surprise for the managers to see the change, like the new-layout was. Many managers didn't agreed with this, but it is here and now I love it more than the old one.

[zandyy]

Cercel,

Every posting you place you seem to find a new problem, which is quite an achievement. I’ll try to address all your concerns.

On your first posting, the answer I sent you should suffice.

Your second posting expressed the following new concerns:
a. It is too complicated to programme. I’m no programmer, but I do not think an optional icon that says “buy it now” with a different price tag than the one that’s being bid is complicated to programme. It is exactly the same technically as the “accept offer” option that currently exist (and will remain to exist according to the proposed system). So, no, it is not complicated technically.
b. Not many managers regard this as a problem. Check out Asiskunk (winner of this season’s A division) and his latest press release. Also, Frrfrr gave you a good reply to that.
c. The ‘Sjarel said’ argument. Sjarel is the creator of the game and the forum, as well as this very forum whose objective is for managers to suggest new features. We debate things here, and if an idea gets enough support and is feasible – Sjarel implements it. With growing demand, discussion and simplification of the idea, it has more chances to be implemented eventually.

On your third posting, you repeat your concern that Frrfrr and I are troublemakers that keep harassing Sjarel for nothing. You then object to the reliability scale (legitimate concern at last!). You then say that you are actually not for nor against the idea (SO WHY WRITE ALL THIS NONSENSE?!). It will bring new bugs you say (so lets get rid of the upcoming features forum altogether!) and confuse managers (the system is dead simple, takes less time than to figure out the cross-table feature that was added recently…). You determine that the very “purpose of the game is to be easy”, no less; but what about managers that have been around for years? Don’t they deserve some slightly advanced optional features?

You conclude by repeating your prediction for chaos, disregarding the fact that it was already suggested that it would be an OPTIONAL and ADVANCED feature, meaning the default transfer system would stay the same unless chosen otherwise on specific transfers (and hence would not come as much or a trauma as the new layout apparently has) and only available to managers after a certain period as managers – I proposed a month.

I hope all your concerns were now answered and you can sleep calmly, although you weren’t really for nor against the idea, just felt like writing a bit.

Serious discussion would be greatly appreciated in the future.

[cercel_jr]

On your third posting, you repeat your concern that Frrfrr and I are troublemakers that keep harassing Sjarel for nothing. You then object to the reliability scale (legitimate concern at last!). You then say that you are actually not for nor against the idea (SO WHY WRITE ALL THIS NONSENSE?!).

I hope all your concerns were now answered and you can sleep calmly, although you weren’t really for nor against the idea, just felt like writing a bit.

Serious discussion would be greatly appreciated in the future.

Where did I said that?
You say you want to talk about this change but I'm not aloud to, because I'm talking "nonsense". OK, I'l say nothing about it.
"nonsense" in this case is finding some problems to your feature or taking in consideration others important things for the game. The purpose of the game is to have more and more managers, not to stick to the few in A and B division. If they get borred find something else, but I really don't think they are borred because of the transfers system.

Finally, I was strictly talking about the feature but you came here and say this nasty things about me and my posts.

Thank you for reading my posts, I will not answer anymore to this topic, as I'm not welcomed here and my states are not good for the future of your feature.
Good luck.

[lee400]

wow, calm down everyone...

I've recently been told off - apparently, everyone has their own opinions, whether it is posting "SP sucks", "Its crap" & "Hattrick much better" all over the forum (C.A. Peñarol ) or whether it is for or against someone's idea...

Back on the line, I personally do believe that something SHOULD be done to completely block off and get rid of the cheaters. However, if we seal one end of the bottle, the other end starts leaking. So far, there has been some sort of a problem to all our ideas... We really do need to develop a fool-proof idea for consideration.

That's all I'd like to say for now.

[zandyy]

Lee,

You’re right of course, should have stayed calm. It’s just that this guy seriously pissed me off. You can disagree, and there are so many arguments against this idea because it does create some problems (while solving others), but using arguments like ‘every change may create bugs’, or ‘the purpose of this game is to be as simple as possible’, or ‘we shouldn’t debate anything Sjarel does not like’ – I mean, come on – this clown had to be told off. These are all arguments that can be used against any change what so ever, regardless of content, and therefore have no place in a debate about a specific idea. He can go and post it in a different post entitled ‘why I am against any changes’.

[cercel_jr]

Sorry zandyy, can I ask you what is your SP team? I'm curious.

[Sjarel]

Lee,

You’re right of course, should have stayed calm. It’s just that this guy seriously pissed me off. You can disagree, and there are so many arguments against this idea because it does create some problems (while solving others), but using arguments like ‘every change may create bugs’, or ‘the purpose of this game is to be as simple as possible’, or ‘we shouldn’t debate anything Sjarel does not like’ – I mean, come on – this clown had to be told off. These are all arguments that can be used against any change what so ever, regardless of content, and therefore have no place in a debate about a specific idea. He can go and post it in a different post entitled ‘why I am against any changes’.

Please stick to the topic, we're trying to gather ideas to find a perfect solution for the transfer market. There is absolutely no need to waist energy on calling eachother names or anything else which might be considered a personal attack.

[mosmartin]

As Sjarel said, one of the best thing in this game is fast transfer.
Delaying fast transfer is same as forbidding, I am talking about the first option dark tiger proposed.

If you want to change the marketplace in my opinion, then you should make a lot of changes to other areas so that the game will be even for now.

I understand from here that the biggest problems are fast transfers(when they are cheap) made by people in A,B,C divisions.
However people in lower divisions are based on fast transfer to grow so you can't forbid them. Also you can't discriminate somebody for being good in order to ban these transfers for A,B,C.

I think a very good solution is eBay style. However this would only widen out the gap between top managers and the rest. This would surely rize the market price for all players, but anyhow the prices are on ascending tendencies.
In order to keep the game fair for everyone I propose the following measures in addition to this:
1. increasing division prizes. The highest place in H should get as much as the 6-th place in G gets. This would stop the temptation for managers to relegate and you will see below why.
2. increasing cup round prizes even more, to make it more efficient for buyers. Besides this all managers ranked in higher divisions should play their cup games home.
I think no. 1 and no. 2 are enough to keep a manager satisfied so we can add number 3 to even the chances.
3. adding an option when you create public friendly cups so that no manager from a higher division then yours can enter it.

This is about all.
Cheers
mosmartin

PS: I almost forgot.
Another BIG improvement to this game would be when cheating would be defined in the rules, and when you have rules for each case that you consider cheating.
Like FrrFrr said before: you can just judge people differently in same situations.

[Dark Tiger]

I tried to read Dark Tiger’s ideas several times, and just don’t understand what they come to solve and why are they posted under this thread. If I understand correctly (and please, tell me I misunderstood!), he suggests:
a. Direct transfers won’t be cancelled but delayed so that in practice they would be unworkable.
b. The transfer period would be pre-determined so that managers with more time on their hand and more rapid internet connections can win more bids.

Unrealistic transfer prices were not the issue of this thread. These, as far as I can tell, are being dealt with regularly and successfully by administrators. The issue here was the negotiation side of the transfer market, and how to make it safer, fairer, more complex and more reflective of market prices.

If you combine both ideas, all managers can still be satisfied (except cheaters). The selling manager can decide the listed period and whenever a bid arrives in the last hours the transfer deadline will be postponed untill the next day or so.

The problem is that unrealistic transfer prizes aren't being dealt with when te transfer prizes are too low because of direct acceptation.

It should at least be impossible to accept offers within the same minute. I've seen this happen too often. Players which should cost 3M are leaving for 1M this way. That's cheating too.

[Sjarel]

It should at least be impossible to accept offers within the same minute. I've seen this happen too often. Players which should cost 3M are leaving for 1M this way. That's cheating too.

But why didn't you (or the buying manager in casu) bid 3M in the first place then ?