Cheating

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How to counter cheating?

Ebay-style transfer market
26
37%
More powers to administrators
11
16%
Implement both ideas
12
17%
Do nothing, cheating should remain an option
21
30%
 
Total votes: 70

zandyy
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Post by zandyy » Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:55 pm

Mate, if you do not see why use a system, and a system is optional - just don't use it then. If you want to understand how you can use it and why it can come in very handy, you can go through previous messages here. But to asnwer you - it is optional, don't want - don't get it - don't use.

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mosmartin
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Post by mosmartin » Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:01 pm

Zandy, it might be optional and let's say I won't use it, but others will use it to cheat and I strongly disagree.

Regarding the bans, it's well as it is now. You had some strong points in your first posts over here and it seemed you know a little law from there.
You can't held someone responsible for an action that it isn't his. This says it all, and you can't ban both people from one transfer anymore like you are doing now. If I bid on your player that worths 1M 20M and you accept, you are as guilty as the buyer.

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Post by Sjarel » Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:47 pm

Once again, what you forget is that in this case the manager would not have to release the player personally, so he can't be made responsible anymore.
Of course he's responsible for the price, he chose it himself.
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PipkiN
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Post by PipkiN » Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:16 am

This will promote rich clubs and people with enough cash spending hours on SP ... And finally won't solve nothing ...

Example: transfer starting at 100k.. After 3 days manager sets BIN price let's say 1M ... Calls his friend by telephone "you can make the 1M offer right now" and here you go....

This will enormously increase the workload of sheriffs I think ...
Last edited by PipkiN on Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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warchilde
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Post by warchilde » Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:17 am

agreed.
in the end, most people here said it is not a good option.

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C.A. Peñarol
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Post by C.A. Peñarol » Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:20 am

yeah, this doesn't convince me yet. Seems like there could be many flaws in the system.
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Post by saman13 » Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:59 am

hi
C.A. Peñarol wrote:yeah, this doesn't convince me yet. Seems like there could be many flaws in the system.
warchilde wrote:agreed.
in the end, most people here said it is not a good option.
mosmartin wrote:Zandy, it might be optional and let's say I won't use it, but others will use it to cheat and I strongly disagree.

Regarding the bans, it's well as it is now. You had some strong points in your first posts over here and it seemed you know a little law from there.
You can't held someone responsible for an action that it isn't his. This says it all, and you can't ban both people from one transfer anymore like you are doing now. If I bid on your player that worths 1M 20M and you accept, you are as guilty as the buyer.
yes . i was reading about 6 page of this topic. and i think this option shuold not use in this game beacuse this option will be make SP in lower case
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Post by zandyy » Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:21 am

Pipkin –

What you describe can happen with the current system just like it can happen with the proposed system. I fail to see what it’s got to do with the new system.

Mosmartin –

Your point was the only one that raised a real problem so far, but even this if you think about it cannot be linked directly with the new system. I’ll be honest with you – I do not know who they ban now – the buyer, the seller, or both – but this needn’t change. It is as easy nowadays to agree on unrealistic transfers as it will be with the new system, so who’s to tell these will increase at all.

Try to think of the benefit to your team by being able, as a seller, to advertise the price you’d be willing to sell a player instantaneously. And what about as a buyer having a price in front of your eyes that you know you can just pay and get the player, no risk of being cheated or cat and mouse games with other buyers.

It’s good to discuss this so that we can understand the implications better, it’s just that arguments here so far were mostly doom and gloom scenarios with no real insight. Mosmartin – thanks for taking the time to read previous messages and get the context, I don’t think the likes of Warchild have. He thinks we are talking now about whether a change is needed or not, but this was not the question here, as two thirds have already voted for some kind of change. We are discussing implications of one proposed change, the most basic one possible, and the fact all commentators so far chose to sulk is no indicator – people are afraid of change by nature. That is why it seems that every ailment of the game is being connected here to the suggested change, while the links between them are very questionable.

Just have a look at how people initially reacted to such changes as the new layout - there were much more objections than congratulations. The silent majority, once they understand this system, will never want to go back.

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warchilde
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Post by warchilde » Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:35 am

if u like to think i did not read, that's fine by me. but look at the poll again. almost equal pepople voted for no change. think about it. this new system changes everything. If you don't want to understand that's not my problem.

You do not want to be able to negociate transfers, i don't know why. Let me ask you this. You think Galliani is going to send a BIN-price to all clubs interested about Kaka in the whole world, or he will just go and negotiate with Real Madrid? and this is just an example, you can take any other player and you will see that transfer involves negotiating with the other part. Not pay some automated money-option and bye-bye.

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Post by nosferatul » Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:40 am

warchilde wrote:Not pay some automated money-option and bye-bye.

if you don't want to negociate with the club you can allways pay the contract reziliation.
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warchilde
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Post by warchilde » Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:52 am

in real life? so you're saying this BIN-price system is something like contract reziliation price? if so, name one team that will pay Ronaldinho's contract reziliation price, which is somewhere above 200M

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Post by zandyy » Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:41 am

Warchild,

I’d be really surprised if you really did read all the messages here, because if you did – I do not understand why you’d ask such questions.

Some of the mechanisms in SP are attempting to imitate real life in as close a way as possible. This is not one of those attempts. The system is strictly a way to try and curb cheating in negotiations while limiting the level of extra resources this would require.

In the example that you give: imagine now that the seller had indeed negotiated with Real Madrid and made them a promise to transfer Kaka immediately for a price that is 50% higher than the current bid. Real Madrid placed the bid but then the seller disappears and the premium Real Madrid was willing to pay for the immediate transfer went to waste. Meanwhile, the seller may tempt others to outbid that high bid. With the current system, this happens too often – it happened to me 4 times since starting in August 06. In real life, this would not have been possible, because Real Madrid would have filed a law-suit against the sellers and ask for damages to represent the lost premium. Here, there isn’t enough manpower to administer this. That is why we were looking for an automated way to limit the extent of such occurances.

You would have known all that if you read the whole subject. I hope the fact that I took the time to reiterate this will urge you to read further before you post your next rant.

And it’s two thirds that support a change of any kind against one third that object it, look at the numbers again.

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mosmartin
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Post by mosmartin » Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:50 am

@Zandy: I understood that your biggest problem are managers that agree to a price for direct transfer just to raise the offer for their player and get more money out of it.
This is ugly and unetical and I've lost a bunch of players like this, but this kind of practices are done by "not so good managers". Sometimes when this happens I threat them with reporting for BAN and few understand and send the players :lol: :lol: :lol: while others don't.
However you can't control this anyhow and there is no point in changing the whole market system only for this. I don't think any good manager will do this thing because he wouldn't like someone else to do it to him.

You can still advertise as a seller the price your request for instant transfer.You can make a topic on the transfer forum, or even more if you have SPFA(which is a must in this game in my opinion) you can make a press add for the player/players you are selling. This new system will lose another advantage of having SPFA in my opinion, which is not good again.

As for seeing the BIN price and being able to buy more players easily, true, but also cheat will increase just because you can buy a player easily. Someone could have two teams and se the BIN price at 3:00 in the morning. From the other team he just has to login after the 4:00 simulation and the players is his, it will be a lot easier to cheat the system then now.

It's true that I don't like the problem when people agree on a price just to raise their player price, having no intention to sell the player for that price but we have to leave with it, or find a feasable solution and this one isn't.

@Sjarel you are true. The buyer is responsible for the price he sets for BIN. But the seller isn't anymore. Even if the seller makes a huge profit on this transaction you can only BAN the buyer, because the seller just took advantage of the new BIN option, like most people here would or should I better say all people here(except you probably) would.

Another bad thing for this is that you level chances a litlle bit. I personally know some managers that are looking for players which are not on the market and try to convince those managers to sell them. The agreement is usually made before the player is being placed on the market. I've even received such offers or made others. Well this guys work, spend a lot of time on SP and you just cut them out with this new BIN option.

To conclude: I am against the curent system proposed here, but open to discussions on another one. Also I got used fast with the current system and it seems very good to me, I'm not quite that old in this game.

@Zandy: One more thing. Honestly I really think that this situations when the buyer agrees for a price and then changes his mind are happening when the price agreed is below market value and the buyer gets advantaged by the transfer.
I personally admit that all cases when this happened to me, I was getting players at very good prices.
So, try to offer on a player more then it worths and everybody will sell him instantly to you. After all it's not such a bad thing to live with, that you didn't trick(somehow it means tricking) the other manager to sell it to you cheaper, even if he initially agreed.

Maybe some players have this practice you say, but I just didn't meet them.
Have you thought that after he agreed with you maybe someone else made a better offer?

PS: I think the only possible solution to this, and it would also simulate real life, would be some kind of pre-agreement for sale. But this has to be discussed so that it's perfect. I am sure this would also rise a lot of problems too.

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warchilde
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Post by warchilde » Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:29 pm

and this rises another problem then.

Sjarel, the seller u can't make responsible for the BIN-price. There is a generaly agreed economichal principle that i can ask any price i want for something i own. Things have a different vallue, depending on the owner. Me, as a seller, can't be made responsible that someone pays my asking price. If that player is worth so much to me, i can ask that big price for him. It's not my responsability that someone actually vallues that player just as high as i do. So the seller can't, or at least shouldn't be held responsible.

Now for the buyer, as mosmartin already explained, he can't be held responsible either. He just took advantage of the transfer sistem. And remember, the discution here is about honest people, not about cheaters.
Cheating is so much easier with this, i just set a BIN-price from one of my teams, log on the other team and buy the player immediately, and you can't blame any of the users involved.

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Post by zandyy » Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:40 pm

Guys,

Answer this simple question please - how is it more simple than it is now to cheat in that way? Answer - no effect at all, no difference. Now you can set a high price and accept a dishonest offer immediately just like with the new system. You two really need to stop and think for a second. There is absolutely no effect by the new system, no difference at all. If any, it will reduce the likelihood of such events by the lengthening of the cool-off period.

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