Cheating

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How to counter cheating?

Ebay-style transfer market
26
37%
More powers to administrators
11
16%
Implement both ideas
12
17%
Do nothing, cheating should remain an option
21
30%
 
Total votes: 70

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dragosh***
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Post by dragosh*** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:45 pm

I think it should be "Buy Him Now" instead of "Buy It Now" because the player is not an object. :D

Personally I like the current rules and I don't see any need for change. :?
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Post by warchilde » Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:25 pm

zandyy wrote:Guys,

Answer this simple question please - how is it more simple than it is now to cheat in that way? Answer - no effect at all, no difference. Now you can set a high price and accept a dishonest offer immediately just like with the new system. You two really need to stop and think for a second. There is absolutely no effect by the new system, no difference at all. If any, it will reduce the likelihood of such events by the lengthening of the cool-off period.
it is not simpler, it's pretty much the same....the difference is not here in my opinion...the difference is that in the curent system you can easily ban the cheaters...in the proposed system, u can't. i explained why.

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dragosh***
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Post by dragosh*** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:45 pm

I don't like the new proposed system. :x Why can't you leave it as it is? There will be cheaters anyway, no matter what you change. :roll:
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mosmartin
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Post by mosmartin » Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:48 pm

zandyy wrote:Guys,

Answer this simple question please - how is it more simple than it is now to cheat in that way? Answer - no effect at all, no difference. Now you can set a high price and accept a dishonest offer immediately just like with the new system. You two really need to stop and think for a second. There is absolutely no effect by the new system, no difference at all. If any, it will reduce the likelihood of such events by the lengthening of the cool-off period.
Lengthening the cool-off period would transform instant transfer in a timed transfer and will loose the fun of the game. Anyway, if that is what the programers follow they cand lenghten the cool-off with the curent system so there is no need for the BIN.

Now to answer your question let's take a simple situation. A guy has a team that he only manages from his home and another thim that he manages from his work. My guess, is that the sherrifs can't find a valid proof to ban him in this case.He wants to sell a very good player from the team he manages at work to the team he manages from home(as cheap sa possible of course).

Let's assume the guy is at work.

Current system:
- he has to go home, miss about 30 minutes from work to make the bid on the player
- then he has to go back to work, which will take another 30 minutes to accept the offer.
So, it is a window of one hour where if someone else makes a bid everything is screwed up.
More problems can rise here, like the office is closed at the end of the day and won't have any access to accept the offer which brings a bigger delay to the transaction. Another problem would be that during the day it's not easy at all to miss from work or it's not in the guys advantage to lose bunch of time to make a SP transfer.

BIN system:
- he puts the BIN when the working schedule is finished and when he get's home he just pays the money and tadaa he has a player.
You can say here that there is a chance that someone else buys the player with the BIN but this is relative. If you diminish the time period, the chances are very small that someone else uses the BIN.

I assume here that the BIN can be set by the seller anytime he whishes because in other cases it will be a total fiasco with transfers.

Of course there would be a lot of scenarios possible here.
The fact that two players have to be both logged on(in most cases) so that the buyer makes a very good transfer is the best weapon SP has against cheaters at this time. Loosing this would make cheating easier, of course.

PS: Sorry for typos but I'm at work and can't spend too much time.

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Post by zandyy » Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:51 pm

Mate,

Do you really think that people go to such lengths to disguise the fact they manage two teams? They actually skip work and run home and such? If there is anyone that is that cautious about not being spotted, it must be a single case. It is by no means a phenomenon. It is actually a ridiculous scenario.

After this absolutely bewildering example, I am left believing that the resentment here is revolved around the fact that the cool-down period will be extended by 24 hours. Direct negotiations are mostly occurring over very good, very expensive players, and the buying managers are usually the more experienced, higher-league ones. Managers whose most expensive player they ever bought costed 5m will not understand the advantages in this – they will only think that negotiations are about tricking inexperienced managers to sell players at bellow-market prices. Such relatively inexperienced managers would therefore be much more bothered by the extended cool-off period than see the advantages in BIN.

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mosmartin
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Post by mosmartin » Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:58 pm

My point is that with BIN cheating gets easier.
If you aprove to that then I rest my point.

My conclusions were already written here, I will probably play the game even if the transfer system is changed, is just the question if I will still enjoy it like now.

Cheers

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Post by C.A. Peñarol » Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:19 pm

I know most people don't like change, and they will do anything to go against change, even though this idea still doesn't convince me, how about we put this on trial? :)
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Post by dawron » Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:23 pm

zandyy wrote:If there is anyone that is that cautious about not being spotted, it must be a single case.
Zandyy, I'm afraid it's not a single case. There are thousands of people who are managing two (or even more!) teams. Some of them created multiply teams on their own, while others e.g. took additional teams from real-life friends who had left the SP allready. And I am sure that hundreds of them at least are very "cautious about not being spotted".
Maybe they are still in lower divisions, but it is just the question of time before they will promote up. But that is another topic for another discussion.
mosmartin wrote:My point is that with BIN cheating gets easier.
I think you are wrong, man. I really can't see any difference between today's cheating possibilities and potential possibilities when BIN-system will be implemented.
To be as clear as possible, I'll use argue scenario which is very simillar to your's :
Current system:
- A cheater has two teams. The first one he's managing from home and the second from work/school (or whatever else frequently visited place). And he want to sell one player from one team ("the work team") to another ("the home team").
- So he put the player to transfer list at first. And then he wait for two days period is over.
- It's the third day and he is at work/school now. So he wait till e.g. 17:59:58 and make the final bid right at this time. Then move to home so quickly to be there (or wherever in the I-netcaffe on that way, if it's to long) before simulation ends. Log on right after the simulation ends (as everybody do sometimes) and accept the bid, the player has been transfered sucessfully.

- And don't forget that a lot of people own such things as an notebook with GPRS internet connection (it mean absolutely different IP Adress and provideer), or some smart phone with internet/web-browser and such a cheating is much more easier for such a people! They have to go nowhere, they can secretly cheat from the single chair.

BIN system:
- It is absolutely the same as above with one possible exception: system will inform all current biders that the seller did set up the BIN price. And it mean they can be very lucky (if online) and pay the BIN price first even before the cheater. Under the current system they are only informed that some another bid had been made, but they can't know it is the final one.
mosmartin wrote:Another bad thing for this is that you level chances a litlle bit. I personally know some managers that are looking for players which are not on the market and try to convince those managers to sell them. The agreement is usually made before the player is being placed on the market. I've even received such offers or made others. Well this guys work, spend a lot of time on SP and you just cut them out with this new BIN option.
Yes, there are managers who search for players this way. And I'm sure it can be very entertaining to some managers. But what You didn't wrote is the fact that in many such cases they are trying to get good players with future potential for lesser price then their market price would be. It mean they are trying to trick less experienced players (I had got a lot of such "offers" when I were in divisions H/G/F, but not the single one later, oops!). So if You are crying about loss of possibility to trick newbies, then shame on You! But if You are just interested in scouting for an appropriate player for your A-selection, then You don't need to worry about change. If you'll find the player you must have, then simply contact his manager and offer him irresistible offer.


And the very last subtopic I want to comment is "Who is responsible for what?".
- Even it is absolutely offtopic here, it's very serious problem.
- I mean the SP rules need the exact definition of "what is an unrealistic price".
- Without such a definition we can never solve who is responsible and who have or haven't the right to demand higher price for his player, or to pay higher price for someone else's player.
- This is the most serious problem of SP and SP rules at this time!!!
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dragosh***
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Post by dragosh*** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:32 pm

mosmartin wrote:Another bad thing for this is that you level chances a litlle bit. I personally know some managers that are looking for players which are not on the market and try to convince those managers to sell them. The agreement is usually made before the player is being placed on the market. I've even received such offers or made others. Well this guys work, spend a lot of time on SP and you just cut them out with this new BIN option.
dawron wrote:Yes, there are managers who search for players this way. And I'm sure it can be very entertaining to some managers. But what You didn't wrote is the fact that in many such cases they are trying to get good players with future potential for lesser price then their market price would be. It mean they are trying to trick less experienced players (I had got a lot of such "offers" when I were in divisions H/G/F, but not the single one later, oops!). So if You are crying about loss of possibility to trick newbies, then shame on You! But if You are just interested in scouting for an appropriate player for your A-selection, then You don't need to worry about change. If you'll find the player you must have, then simply contact his manager and offer him irresistible offer.
Hey, what's the problem if you "trick" a H,G, or F manager to get a player with a smaller price? :roll:

Think about real life: Chealsea,first league in England, takes a young player for 50k from a team from 3-th league England. The player was also watched by Arsenal who was willing to pay 500k but they wanted to watch him 1 more week before they tell they give 500k for him. The player grows well and confirms the scout's clever move becoming a superstar.
Did Chelsea "trick" the 3-th league team? No way.
Is Arsenal envious on Chealsea now that they coudn't get the player? Of course.

You sayed that you got many messages when you were in H, G, or F , many managers wanted to trick you. Did they succeed in tricking you?
Even if you are a newbie, or in h,g or f you can always watch the transfer overview to prevent beeing tricked. On the other hand, with a little care and brain use you won't be tricked no matter the division.
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Post by Sjarel » Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:54 pm

Determining the market value of a player is a big problem and always will be. Many have tried to create a formula, nobody succeeded so far.

But as you say, that's not relevant for the BIN-option.
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Post by dawron » Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:12 pm

dragosh*** wrote:You sayed that you got many messages when you were in H, G, or F , many managers wanted to trick you. Did they succeed in tricking you?
Even if you are a newbie, or in h,g or f you can always watch the transfer overview to prevent beeing tricked. On the other hand, with a little care and brain use you won't be tricked no matter the division.
No, I haven't been tricked, but I am 28 years old man with knowledge about marketing, economy and especially sociology, so it's easy for me to handle with trickers. But, Dragosh, You know there are "managers" under 15 years old too.
And this is the web-based game, not the simulator of the real life soccer bussiness. In real life, even in 7th division, You know that the young player from your's club has really big potential to become a star. Mind that all involved people in such a situation knows football very well, becose it is their's life-long profession and/or hobby. The manager of 7th division team knows very well how to sell him, when, to whom and what is adequate price. Real soccer is deeply complex system of relations and knowledge. You can't simply compare real-life situations to SP, at least if You wanna be serious. Fourteen years old child who's newbie on SP can't recognize who is trying to trick him unles guarded and advised from somebody more experienced in SP.
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Post by unicool » Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:01 pm

Fourteen years old child who's newbie on SP can't recognize who is trying to trick him unles guarded and advised from somebody more experienced in SP.
all those childs must put themselfs a big question...:"why a B,C or D team is interested on my young player....or in any player?" the answer is only one:the manager from B,C,D are more experienced managers and knows better the game and if the player is good or no...so if they are interested means that the player can became good and you ask a big price and negociate with him.

with the BIN price a lot of managers will cheat...they will put high prices and "somebody" offer the price and get the player.if i am at promotion and need quickly a player(CB for ex) and see one with 67 BP at 29 years that have the BIN price 7 mil.the player don't make that much but i really need that player just for one or two games and i will give 7 M for the player just to get the promotion(or save myself from relegation)......can you make the difference between me and a manager that pay a BIN price "just for fun"?

the best thing is to make a formula that calculate a maximum and a minimum price for players.you cannot pay less than x euros but no more than y euros for a player.the formula cat be with an error of 2 mil for the highest price and 500k for the lowest.
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Post by sljivovica » Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:42 pm

unicool wrote: the best thing is to make a formula that calculate a maximum and a minimum price for players.you cannot pay less than x euros but no more than y euros for a player.the formula cat be with an error of 2 mil for the highest price and 500k for the lowest.
I agree, especially the lowest price would make thw market more fair.
But it's hard to come up with a good formula :?
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Post by dragosh*** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:22 pm

dawron wrote:
dragosh*** wrote:You sayed that you got many messages when you were in H, G, or F , many managers wanted to trick you. Did they succeed in tricking you?
Even if you are a newbie, or in h,g or f you can always watch the transfer overview to prevent beeing tricked. On the other hand, with a little care and brain use you won't be tricked no matter the division.
No, I haven't been tricked, but I am 28 years old man with knowledge about marketing, economy and especially sociology, so it's easy for me to handle with trickers. But, Dragosh, You know there are "managers" under 15 years old too.
And this is the web-based game, not the simulator of the real life soccer bussiness. In real life, even in 7th division, You know that the young player from your's club has really big potential to become a star. Mind that all involved people in such a situation knows football very well, becose it is their's life-long profession and/or hobby. The manager of 7th division team knows very well how to sell him, when, to whom and what is adequate price. Real soccer is deeply complex system of relations and knowledge. You can't simply compare real-life situations to SP, at least if You wanna be serious. Fourteen years old child who's newbie on SP can't recognize who is trying to trick him unles guarded and advised from somebody more experienced in SP.
Well Dawron, actually I must admit that I really am 16 years old, studying at the maths and informatics profile in highschool ! :D
When I started this game, I was not advised by anyone(I didn't even visit the forum, just 2 months after I created my team I visited it first time).

I really know how experienced managers wanted to buy my first youths, but I refused them because looking through other managers history I saw how good youths can become.

So,even if I am 16 years old, I don't play any other online games, I don't have any knowledge about marketing or economy I still couldn't be "tricked". So if a manager can be tricked, he can be tricked no matter the age, because he is not really interested in the game or his personality is influenceable, things that you can't change.

Anyway,we're talking about managers that get players cheaper, which I think even Isis admited that is not cheating unless the other team from which you buy the player cheaper than market price is yours.
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Post by sljivovica » Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:50 pm

Sjarel wrote:Determining the market value of a player is a big problem and always will be. Many have tried to create a formula, nobody succeeded so far.
Would you be interested in a formula?
It would make total sense for a board to say "we won't sell him for any less than xxxxx"
I'm kinda looking into a formula now, and I think it can be done with some tweaking and finetuning.
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S27 & onwards: C-division and lower.
Currently (S41): E.45

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