Cheating

[dawron]

So,even if I am 16 years old, I don't play any other online games, I don't have any knowledge about marketing or economy I still couldn't be "tricked". So if a manager can be tricked, he can be tricked no matter the age, because he is not really interested in the game or his personality is influenceable, things that you can't change.

You are right, Dragosh, thank you for your ideas. But it's considered from your individual point of view. What we need is to think about SP system as the complex. The age of SP managers definitely isn't the main and/or only variable causing that somebody is trickeable and the other isn't. Maybe one is not really interested in the game, another one has influenceable personality, etc., that're the possible causes, right. But definitely there is a part of younger players who are not so smart, just the same way as there is big part of older managers who are not interested in game enought to resist all the tricks.
But what is bad for SP as a system is the fact that there is some group of managers who are actively trying to make profit from such a trickering. It's very similar to zandyy's original problem with "negotiating cheaters".

And this problem has two possible solutions: a) let it be as it is, or b) try to improve SP system somehow to make it impossible. Zandyy started this topic with intention to try the b) variant. Although I rejected such a try to change the system at first, I changed my mind then. I'm open to ideas about "fixing" SP system some way to reduce cheaters/trickers possibilities now.

[zandyy]

I'm kinda looking into a formula now, and I think it can be done with some tweaking and finetuning.

Good luck mate, but I think it’s a waste of time – it cannot be done. Or maybe it can but it would require much more complicated and ongoing calculations than you think.

The price for a player is primarily determined by his bp with 100 experience, right? But how do you get that info if the player isn’t fully trained? What is the value of time: to reach 100 experience, to train, to up morale? How much does aggression cost? And age?

But even beyond valuations of specific players, there’s the largely unexplored area of SP inflation – we all sense that players prices are on the up, but did you ever think of the reason to that? While expenses and income largely stay the same, there are more managers, more supply of players and more money in the game daily, and this is another influence on changing players’ prices. More teams with higher fan bases are another factor that influence money supply.

Bottom line – any formula would be a waste of time because it would either be absolutely inaccurate, or it would need to take too many factors and access too many databases to calculate.

Also, if the system would be able to calculate what a realistic price is according to the player’s stats and will not enable placing players on transfer outside of that price range, it would in effect expose to potential buyers what that player’s final stats are.

[sljivovica]

I'm kinda looking into a formula now, and I think it can be done with some tweaking and finetuning.

...Text...

I have taken into account all the factors you listed.

Remember: This is NOT to set a player value, but to set a minimum value to prevent teams from selling players too much under market value. Obviously, this value should be under the market value, but to a reasonable extend.
Most managers will want to get MORE money, and that's a healthy thing. The problem (one of many) this should help prevent is cheaters buying players way too cheap from their 2nd/3rd teams.

Inflation and the change in market can simply be updated by slightly changing the factors in the formula, probably once a season would be enough.

or it would need to take too many factors and access too many databases to calculate.

You may have a great point, but I have no clue on how many recources it needs etc...

Also, if the system would be able to calculate what a realistic price is according to the player’s stats and will not enable placing players on transfer outside of that price range, it would in effect expose to potential buyers what that player’s final stats are.

True... it would reflect in the minimum the board wants you to ask.
Ask more, and the buyer will have no clue anymore.

[zandyy]

Remember: This is NOT to set a player value, but to set a minimum value to prevent teams from selling players too much under market value.

Alright then, I’m convinced.

As long as this is only for a minimum price and not a maximum price, and as long as it gives sufficient leeway, it can actually be a useful tool to combat substantially-bellow-market-value transfers. The Board can then tell the manager he cannot put the player for sale at such a price, and the manager will have the choice between raising the asking price or simply firing the player. The current option when placing a player for sale to put him there for free would have to be cancelled.

I am still not sure how necessary this is though, especially since the cool-down period is going to be extended now and bellow-market prices would inevitably be reduced thanks to that.

When coming up with a formula, you have to play the balance between having an accurate enough formula that takes in all important factors and makes it impossible to manipulate the numbers on the one hand, and having a manageable formula that does not require too many resources on the other hand. I think you are underestimating the complexity of calculating SP inflation. By manipulation I mean that if the formula for a minimum price would only take into account rating for example (such as the current salary formula, or am I wrong?), it would be easy to manipulate it by reducing the player’s morale before placing him on sale. Just an example.

[dawron]

Oh, yeah, Inflation - another important problem. Let me present short thought about Inflation and it's relations on cheating, maybe it can help.

Where does all SP economy money come from?

Money sources of SP economy:
1. SP Cup & League price money.
2. Tickets, TV rights and "homegame incomes".
3. Starting money ascribed to every new manager account.
4. Advertising incomes.


Channels through SP economy money flow off:
1. Player's salaries.
2. Staff salaries, homegame costs, Youth-centres maintenance.
3. Loan penalty interest.
4. Disappeared money from deleted accounts.
5. Investments to stadium developments.

@ Sjarel: Can You compare how much money comes to SP economy with new created accounts and how much leaves it with deleted accounts (e.g. monthly)? It can be very helpfull to know it. And what about total amount of money in SP economy, can You count it someway?



As far as I can see, the starting money ascribed to every new manager account are the biggest threat.
- I remember it was 1,7M when I started on 24th of December 2006 and I guess it didn't change, or did it?
- Every newbie can take a loan up to 2,5M also. It means that every newcomer dispose of 4.2M cash total. That is definely a lot of money! (And what's more, he can sell some players too.)

What are the consequences?
- Possible Inflation increase.
- It is strong motivation for cheating. It's probably the main reason why some people set up multiply accounts. Although there is cca one week delay before "new manager" can participate on transfer market, it can't help against the cheaters. They'll simply wait one week or more, if this period will be prolonged. Stupid cheaters who will spend this money on single transfer ending on unrealistic price will be discovered so and both their's teams will be banned. But smarter ones can make some real profit from it. They can e.g. slightly support transfers by trying repeatedly overbid real bidders for 5% and help to rise up the price this way. They can also buy some player who get too old for a realistic price once per three seasons, etc.

I think new accounts/managers should not get so much money at start + a loan and selling players should be available only for thease who get promoted to division G.
- It means a newbie has to show up that he can manage it and that he is really interested in SoccerProject before his money and players get to SP economy.
- It should make cheating with using multiple accounts much harder. Imagin the cheater has to promote his secondary (tercially,...) team(s) through division H before he can take any profit from it.

[zandyy]

I think new accounts/managers should not get so much money at start + a loan and selling players should be available only for thease who get promoted to division G.

Not sure if I'll go that far, but I think loans should not be available before you're promoted to G, good idea Dawron.

On your first issue of inflation, a few corrections:
• Friendly tournaments prize money is not new money – it is equal to the subscription fee.
• Advertising is the most substantial source of new money in SP, which you forgot to mention.
• If newly created players are new money, then youth players are new money too. These are not actual cash-flows though, just assets that can be liquidated; therefore, for a future calculation of inflation, I think it would be enough to price an average net-worth of a newly-created team (cash + assets).
• Money also leaves SP when players get sacked (compensation and loss of net-worth).
• Investment is definitely another source of money exit, not problematic at all – it is balanced by money coming in through ticket sales / more youth players etc.

One major inflation driver is indeed the number of new teams, which bring in new cash, new assets, and new demand for and supply of players. The second major driver is the ratio of new and old teams: more veteran teams have a larger fan-base and hence more income potential. They also have better youth centres, and hence more youth players, which are worth more than players you get with a new team. This driver is the one that makes things so complicated to calculate.

Let me suggest a more simple idea on inflation: it requires the calculation of three figures:
• How much money poured into SP per season. This number is already available – it is the total income minus total expenses we all have in our accounting summary. This gives an accurate-enough figure for this number without going into too much detail.
• What is the average net-worth of a new team. If we know that, we can calculate how much money and assets came into the game each season. This is of course a net number – new teams minus teams that left or were banned, but for simplicity lets assume teams that leave are worth as much as new teams.
• The total money supply. This is the tricky one, but it has to be calculated somehow just once, and from there the index will be based on that number as a 100% benchmark.

When we have these three numbers, the calculation is simple. If the total money supply is €100tr, the total money that poured in was €2tr and the total money that came in as new teams was €2tr, then inflation for that season was 4%.

[dawron]

Thanks for correcting me, zandyy.

I really did a lot of mistakes in my last post. Advertising is definely money source and the new players are not, that was the worst mistakes. New players (whether from youth centres or from new manager's accounts) doesn't affect total money sum in SP economy anyway, therefore they can't make any influence on Inflation. However they can affect actual player's prices.

So I edited my post and it should be correct now.

[H.Crespo(FC.Inter.Milano)]

My ideas to reduction a cheats:


1. Cancel a direct accept transfer.
2. Abridge stay a player on transfer list on 5 days.
3. Extend the period prolonging stay a player on transfer list from 1 day on 2 days.
4. Extension stay on transfer list from 1 day on 2 days.
5. Enable a direct accept transfer only in prolongation time.

[sljivovica]

My ideas to reduction a cheats:

3. Extend the period prolonging stay a player on transfer list from 1 day on 2 days.
4. Extension stay on transfer list from 1 day on 2 days.

Not sure what the difference is between 3 and 4
But what I think it is, I would be very much against that.

5. Enable a direct accept transfer only in prolongation time.

Interesting to think about...

[H.Crespo(FC.Inter.Milano)]

Not sure what the difference is between 3 and 4
But what I think it is, I would be very much against that.

Sorry for my misty idea – 3 and 4

I specify for example:

Now:

Mine player will on transfer list to the 24.11. in 4:00.
23.11. in 16:00 puts some manager offers.
Player go away as far as 25.11. in 4:00.

My idea:

Mine player will on transfer list to the 24.11. in 4:00.
22.11. in 16:00 puts some manager offers.
Player go away as far as 26.11. in 4:00.

Interesting to think about...

O.K., thank you.

[Hmyzak]

I think that setting price floor for minimum and maximum price is nonsence. Look on main page - "Can you manage it?" You cannost set minimum and maximum price, becuase you ruin other "poor" teams, but "wealthy" teams will be profitting from it, because of no small prices = part of SP (H,G) won't be able to bid on some player because of money, and you know that H and G division, there are a LOT OF PLAYERS. And wealthy clubs will be still growing. I agree with that, new H teams have to show us, they are clear and that they aren't used as a farms. We should give them less money and give them oportunity to take a loan from their promoting to the G division.

[bunicutzu]

5. Enable a direct accept transfer only in prolongation time.

Interesting to think about...

i'm totally against it. why? because i may want to quickly sell a player in order to be able to buy another one (i have 35 players, i can only make offer if i have 34). so i see an important player on the transfer list that i want to buy, there a 5 days left till the automatic sell. what can i do if i have 35 players? if there is no direct transfer option (or it is only in the prolongation time) than i will not be able to buy.
too much restriction will kill this game.

[Dark Tiger]

I don't like the Ebay-style transfer market for most games but within this game it may be a good solution.

[renitsa]

Establishing a minimum price to be paid will make it harder for the new teams to grow otherwise than through speculation with players, which i think is not all right. There should be bargains and there should be the possibility to grow decently without an excessive number of transfers.
Granting a team the possibility to make transfers and loans only after reaching G will make it even harder for new managers to make very good teams and discourage them to play for a long time. Especially since H is the best division for transfers and for making money. You may have observed that the number of managers in the game is decreasing, so I think there should be conditions for new managers to play longer, not to intimidate and limit them.
it has been proposed in a topic to increase the percent of the money paid to the previous team, but it gained little attention. However, it would be a good solution for the redistribution of capital from higher divisions teams to new and especially to active lower divisions teams and improve the lower divisions standards and competition overall. I have explained it here: http://forum.soccerproject.com/viewtopi ... 05#1033805

[zandyy]

there are more and more of those around, and they are making good money out of cheating, and soon you will see them in higher leagues.

Really, I don't think so. Most of the managers from higher divisions play the game fair, and they understand that that is necessary to compete on top level.
Yes, they make a lot of money from deals, but that is with approval of both managers, unlike the example you gave above.

Sljivovica,

Just for the record: the cheating manager that started all this is going to play in C next season…